Ep. 103 From Loss to Light: Finding Meaning After a Child’s Death

In this frank and poignant conversation, I sit down with psychotherapist and author Sally McQuillen, who shares the deeply personal journey behind her debut memoir Reaching for Beautiful, A Memoir of Loving and Losing a Wild Child written in honour of her 21-year-old son Christopher, who tragically died in a boating accident in January 2016. With me (Vonne) now 20 years into my grief as a bereaved mom and Sally 9 ½ years into her journey, together we explore the long road of healing after child loss in this heartfelt discussion to inspire and help parents who have lost a child or are parenting “in fear”.

Sally discusses the emotional toll of parenting a child with addiction, the deep fear that often accompanies such parenting, and how her faith became a guiding light through unimaginable loss. The conversation highlights the importance of forgiveness, letting go of guilt, and the role of spiritual practices in helping anyone bereaved find meaning and peace in their loss.

Together, we unpack the layered impact of grief on surviving children, the crucial role of self-care, and how different types of loss - such as suicide, sudden or expected death can shape our bereavement experience. We open up about our spiritual connections with our children, and the comfort we’ve found through mediumship and faith, and the enduring power of love and gratitude as essential to both of our healing processes.

This episode is a powerful reminder that while grief may never fully go away, we can still find purpose, connection, and joy on the other side of deep sorrow if we allow ourselves to find all that we can in our loss experience.

As Christopher often said to his mom and I would suggest now imparts this as a major life lesson for us all:

“Life is honestly so beautiful, as long as you allow it to be.”

Connect with Sally:

https://www.sallymcquillen.com/

Connect with Vonne:

https://vonnesolis.com/

Podcast Ep. 8 “The Myths and Truths of Suicide”  Links:

Audio:

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2021182/11230104

YouTube:

https://youtu.be/tKLLKkGtrqQ

Subscribe to the podcast! Share your favourite episodes! Connect with Vonne on LinkedIn and Facebook.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome.
• 1:00 Introduction to Sally and book overview.
• 5:28 Sally's Motivation for Writing the Book.
• 9:46 Parenting in Fear and the Impact of Social Media on Our Health.
• 18:22 Sally's Personal Journey and the Role of Faith in Grief.
• 37:46 Care of Surviving Children and Self-Care.
• 59:15 The Importance of Letting Go and Finding Meaning After Loss.
• 1:03:32 The Impact of Suicide in Grief vs. Other Deaths.
• 1:09:32 Final Thoughts and Encouragement.
• 1:10:48 Christopher’s message.
• 1:13:10 Sally’s Resources and Closing.

Transcript

Vonne Solis  0:00  
This is the Grief Talk Podcast with Vonne Solis, helping you heal after loss and life's hardest hits. 

Vonne Solis  0:05  
Today's guest is Sally McQuillen. Sally is a psychotherapist in private practice specializing in addiction recovery, grief and trauma healing. When Sally's 21 year old son died in a boating accident in January 2016 her greatest fear was realized. In her debut memoir, Reaching For Beautiful - A Memoir of Loving and Losing A Wild Child, Sally unleashes her powerful story of becoming a bereaved mom and how love triumphs over pain, transcends fear and that love never dies. This is a candid interview discussing Sally's book and the most poignant of moments, where, as a bereaved mom, Sally must come to terms with the loss of her beautiful son and the lessons that grief has to teach her that she is now sharing with others. 

Vonne Solis  1:00  
Sally, welcome to my show. I am so happy that you are here. If you want to pop in, say hi to my audience, we're going to get into what we're talking about in this episode right after that.

Sally McQuillen  1:15  
I'm so happy to be with you, Vonne, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Vonne Solis  1:21  
So audience, what you may not know is I did have Sally's husband on in 2023. So what's so unique and interesting for me and any listeners that listen to both episodes, is you're going to get a look that's very rare, Sally at a partnership. A husband, a wife, a mom, a dad, and how they experienced, faced head-on the death of their beautiful son, Christopher, in January, 2016 from an accident. A boating accident. And what that in itself, Sally is like so unique. It's hard enough getting a book written by a parent. So to have two of you as authors, amazing! Amazing. The amazing McQuillens.

Vonne Solis  2:08  
So stick around audience today as we have a very frank, a very poignant and a very honest look at the content of Sally's book, which delivers us tons of topics to talk, talk about. I'm in grief 20 years. This is July 2025. I lost my daughter to suicide in July 05. Twenty years for me. Sally is in at nine and a half. And as I said to Sally just before the interview started, that her book just it was, it was painful, but beautiful to read at the same time Sally, and brought me right back to my early grief. For me, it served as a beautiful marker for how long, you know, how far I've come in the time. But at that same time, the dichotomy is that pain very deep within us, it's still there, right? Which begs the question, can you really, ever, you know, heal from grief? 

Vonne Solis  3:09  
I had a psychologist on who said, No. I've had, you know, people who are energy workers, who say I can heal anything. So I don't know. I'm, I don't know. I'm stuck in the middle on that one, but I've learned, and I'm not going to stay too long with this topic, but I've just learned at 20 years to love my grief. And to find the right word for it was to honour it as a very sacred, very important part of me, not just my daughter, not just as a nod to my daughter, but actually as a nod to everything I've gone through in my life. So that's kind of currently where I'm at. That may change, but that's where I'm at today. 

Vonne Solis  3:42  
So what we're covering audience in this episode, and we're going to get right to it, is why Sally wrote the book, you know, briefly, and it was a seven year journey for her. So I mean, that's dedication. So Sally, I'm very eager to learn, as I'm sure my audience is, gosh, what kept you going on it? What was the purpose of that for you personally? We're going to talk about when our child is different. And Sally, you talk a lot about that. Chris was your wild child. He did have addiction problems. And we're going to talk about that because I come from the suicide side of things. We're going to have a little bit of a look into what that's like. But really, in the end, it's no no matter to me, no difference how our child died. 

Vonne Solis  4:26  
We're going to talk about the worry and fear we have for them when we sense something's not right, or worry. And I know, Sally, you went through this as did I that their time wasn't going to be on the planet very long. You know? And with me, I wasn't quite sure what it was going to be, but, boy, I worried that something was going to happen to her. And I know you did. And I know you speak about two specific times Christopher nearly lost his life. And, man, you know? So that is just in and of itself when I was reading that in your book, and I was just like, Oh my God, how did she do this? How did she do this? I want you to talk a little bit about that. We're going to talk about self-care in grief. We're going to talk about faith. We're going to talk about letting go and being left behind. And most importantly, we're going to end with living. Staying here and choosing to live. Not just survive, but live. So sound good to you Sally?

Sally McQuillen  5:26  
Ssounds just perfect.

Vonne Solis  5:28  
Okay, let's go. And by the way, audience, Sally loves being asked the hard questions. So that's why we're going to dive deep today, and the purpose is to help you. So Sally, let's just dive in and you tell us why you wrote the book and how you stayed at it for that seven year journey. Wow.

Sally McQuillen  5:49  
Truly. I, I would do anything for my children, and I will do anything to this day for Christopher. And so there was something about my loyalty to him and my desire to honour him that did help me maintain the commitment to my writing over time. It was such a process. Each draft had unanticipated gifts inside, but it also, it was a necessary tool for me in being able to express my pain. And I did it the first draft, or even a few first drafts were written to Christopher. And my very first one, you'll laugh Vonne, was actually texting. I was texting as if to him, without really even appreciating that that's what I was doing. In my desperation to connect with him. I was letting him know how I was feeling. 

Sally McQuillen  7:06  
And so my objective with this in turning it into a memoir, well, I had several objectives. You know, initially it was, wouldn't it be wonderful if I could be understood. And I say that very frankly, because there's always been a part of me that has struggled to ensure that I'm seen in terms of what's happening on my insides because I'm a very deep feeler, and if you look at me from the outside, you might not know what I'm experiencing in my interior life. So that's been something that's directed me. But I wanted to do this inside look at grief, both for other bereaved parents who potentially could read what I had to share and feel less alone in their own grief. And then also let other people who aren't necessarily grieving a child. I think you know, most of us on this earth will end up grieving a loved one in some way, shape or form, but this has a little bit of a unique twist in terms of subject matter that not a lot of people were really talking about nine years ago. And increasingly we're starting to get a little bit more comfortable with the subject of grief. I think COVID ended up contributing to that, but we still have a long way to go. People you know are essentially so uncomfortable with the subject, and it was so that was another one of my goals. And over time, it felt like there was more to the story. I, there was a piece about what it's like to raise a child who struggles with addiction. What it's like to raise a child who's in any way different. And you alluded to it earlier, what it's like to be parenting in fear and try to find a way through that. As well as what it's like to survive grief with such acuity that I had never before even scratched the surface of it.

Vonne Solis  9:46  
Yeah. So a couple of things. I just want to say. I love your term parenting in fear. I have met so many people over the years who were so scared, worried about their child but they wouldn't talk to their child. And I was like, too late for me. Talk to your kid, folks. Talk to them! And you and I, I think we spoke just this and said, you know about suicide being an epidemic, well, so is addiction. Holy crap, among you know, amongst our young children. We and and listen, I know you were so close with Chris and I was so close with Janaya. So close. But they're not going to sit there and tell us their deepest, darkest problems. And we found this out afterwards. But in 2005 we didn't have iPhones or anything like that. You know, Facebook wasn't even really around, so we were just doing with the flip phones and messaging. But we found evidence. And, you know, for parents out there, I'm just throwing this in, and then we're going to continue on your side of things. You know, listen, even back in '05, Janaya had been visiting suicide boards. Okay? The police confiscated her computers. She had two, and wiped them after they, you know, and then returned them to us two months later. But they wiped all of that. So I had, I know. Okay? I know. So that means whatever was on there was serious enough that they didn't think that they should return that information to the parents.

Vonne Solis  11:26  
And so this is just a nod to the fact that today, it's much easier to visit dark websites. It's much easier for them to get drugs than it was 20 years ago, but they'll find a way, and it's I don't have the answers. Listen, there are parents out there dealing with things like managing, controlling their kids access to technology. There was just a story of a 10 year old boy who took his life a week or two ago. Ten! They get into drugs. I mean, right, Sally? They get into drugs at much earlier ages. And so maybe we'll turn to that. We'll we'll turn to so, so parenting in fear - part of that, if you at least feel you can address it by confronting your child and they're choosing not to tell you things at least you tried, and you don't have to live with regret if you do lose them that you didn't do enough, right? And on that note, I do want to turn to you know, like when our child is different. When when we're worried about them. When they don't quite fit in. When they have, in the case of your son, an addiction that there's nothing to be ashamed of. So maybe, if you can address some of those points from your side of it, Sally. How to sort of, I don't really want to use the word warn, but educate, maybe, inform parents of anything you may have missed, which in your book, it sounds like you missed nothing. You did everything to help Chris. So there's and it still didn't work. But you may have, and probably did carry regret about that, right? But anything you want to talk to about the wild child and addiction, part of it for you that you struggled with and could help other parents.

Sally McQuillen  13:24  
Yes. I'm I'm so interested in the fact that what I'm discovering is regardless, and it may just be because of the world that we're in currently and the role of social media, but it appears as if everyone is living in higher degrees of anxiety or fear. But I will certainly say that for me as a child of an alcoholic who was hoping she could prevent her child from developing alcoholism. The I had, I probably had a certain amount of you know, there were seedlings of fear that developed in my childhood, and maybe was my chemistry to begin with. So so many things end up being interrelated, but I was doing everything in my power to attempt to prevent my son, who clearly had all of the hallmarks of being ripe for addiction. He had Attention Deficit Disorder, so he was very, you know, reckless, and couldn't get beyond the moment that he was in. He felt different, in large part even before dealing with his addiction, because he learned differently, because he was neurodivergent, and it took us a while to figure that out that he had learning challenges. And I just knew that he was challenging. That he had me out over my skis. That he never stopped moving. 

Sally McQuillen  15:22  
You know, my husband is this way, but I didn't, I didn't have the - back in the early 90s, we didn't know as much about some of these things. And so together, my husband and I, you know, procreated children who were going to then be susceptible to addiction and attention deficit disorder and and some mood symptoms and some anxiety and depression. And so, all of that meant I was thinking about my own experience as a little girl and how different I had felt as the daughter of a volatile dad. As the one of the first people I knew whose parents got divorced. As someone who eventually recognized that she was an alcoholic and needed to stop drinking and then had to change, you know, my own life around that. And wanting so desperately not to have my also deeply sensitive child feeling this way because we shared being very social and wanting to be liked, and so that fuelled my fear. 

Sally McQuillen  16:56  
But what I've come to find out since Christopher died is that most every parent, even if they don't have children like your daughter who may have been struggling with her mood, or Christopher, who may have been struggling with his and turned to drugs because of it, they are fearful anyway. We as parents, especially, I think maybe mothers in my generation and thereafter, feel like it is our Type A job to make sure, sort of in a helicoptering fashion, that our children are spared from difficulty. And the funny thing thing, the funny thing that Christopher taught me, both in his life and and through his death, we're not supposed to be doing that. We're actually supposed to find ways to relinquish our fear and let them find ways to unfortunately learn the hard way who they are through facing and meeting the challenges that are part of their paths.

Vonne Solis  18:22  
Huh, I'm taking deep breaths. Sally's a psychotherapist too, audience, so you know, you're coming at it from different areas. And I'm not saying it's therapy at this moment, but you're, you know, I'm taking a deep breath because it's so hard. That's part of letting go. A big part of letting go, but it's still so scary. And you don't know and so what they're going to do. And so I'm going to pop in with this. So you have two surviving children. Beautiful daughter, beautiful son, and I have a son. And anyway, he's now 33 and my daughter would have been 42. And I told you before the recording started, so that gap of that, that gap since she's been gone 20 years, it's left me in a time capsule. And also losing my daughter, who would be my Mom, don't tuck your shirt in, or, Oh, this would look good on you. You know, she's my fashion little guru. And all of that was gone now for 20 years. And so I see my son growing up and not doing the same thing. Scared like heck for him, but not doing the same things. And caught, you know, like sometimes, like, at 48 years old, when she died, like, what do I do? It's, it's a weird, weird thing. And I just wonder if you could speak to that. Do you worry about your other two kids? They're nothing like Christopher, from what I gained in your book. Um, you know, like, I know you said it was going to be hard for you to be here for the family after he left. Did you resolve that? So two questions. Did you resolve that feeling? Because, you know, it's nine and a half years in, and I felt like that too. And by the way, my first year of grief, my husband did everything for our surviving son, you know, like, that's it. He had to take over, and he did a wonderful job. He was a stepdad to my daughter. So my grief felt very private and very alone. And so I get also when you said earlier about writing your book in part to be seen and to be heard, I did the same thing. I was so frustrated because no one talked about anything. So how do you resolve from either if you want to talk like just for sure as a mom, but also if you have any tools like you could share with us, because I still deal with my fear of losing Skylar. 

Sally McQuillen  20:56  
Yes.

Vonne Solis  20:57  
 He knows that, and it's like living waiting for the shoe to drop. 

Sally McQuillen  21:04  
Yes. So all of which is so actually predictable, but we don't know going through having had our worlds rocked...

Vonne Solis  21:18  
 Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  21:19  
what to expect. And one of the things that happened for me was that I ended up wrestling with feeling as if because I had, I had the benefit of a spiritual program that was encouraging me to let go of fear even before Christopher passed. It was tricky, because Chris was - there wasn't not a lot of time would go by before trouble would would find him or he'd and we'd be getting phone calls and coming to his rescue in one way, shape or form, typically, my husband, Joe. And but we were often on pins and needles and even before he passed. And during a period of time, he was clean and sober from the age of 16 to 19, we needed to send him away to a therapeutic boarding school in order to facilitate that and we were privileged enough to be able to afford to do that. But it was also very much a sacrifice with high stakes. Because at that point before we sent him off his depression resulting from his his drug and alcohol use was such that we did worry that he might take his life. He was definitely bordering on suicidal. And so we intervened, and were very fortunate that we could send him to a place where he could get all of the resources that he needed. 

Sally McQuillen  23:11  
And so during that time when he was not living with me, I could begin to sort of breathe again a little bit and focus on that which I could control, which was simply to love Him. And so I was beginning to practice some of the skills that I would later need, both after he died and with my surviving children. And just when I felt as if it because three years later, when he was 19, he wanted to go to college and be like the rest of his peers. And so, not surprisingly, out of a more supportive sober environment, he immediately resumed drinking and using drugs, and the truth is, he ended up having a wonderful time in college. And I'm grateful that he had those years from 19 to 21 getting to experience what it was like to be, quote, more normal, so to speak. And by that, I mean being in a fraternity where he experienced, you know, such camaraderie and brotherhood with his friends. That was so important to him. And he'd had that kind of leadership opportunities and mentoring, and what had been mentored and been a mentor when he was away in Arizona And so I had just said, Okay, he's he's drinking again. I'm going to try to not be anxious every minute because what I've been learning is that if I'm chasing him, if I'm micromanaging him and trying to control his every move out of my own fear it's going to push him away. I'm going to find myself in a familiar chasing position where I'm looking for connection that isn't entirely as possible during this time in his life. It's appropriate for him to be independent. It's he already knows that I'd rather he not be drinking. He talked to both of us about the fact that he knew at some point he'd have to get sober again. He just wasn't quite there yet, and so we hoped in the interim that he would survive. 

Sally McQuillen  26:04  
And so just at that moment where I felt like I was successfully practicing this discipline of letting go of fear, he and his three friends went up to a lake house to gather in the in January, a few days after the holidays, and I thought that would be a safe space for him to be. He was not going to go back into the city to go to the bars. It was just going to be a whole group of guys. And they were drinking, using drugs, and they just thought at that time that it'd be a good idea to go out and take a canoe onto a frozen lake. And four of them, the four of them that did that, did not survive. So my very worst fear came to fruition. I was traumatized by it, just on the heels of having let go. And so...

Vonne Solis  27:13  
I got chills just now. I just got chills just now. Sorry.

Sally McQuillen  27:17  
you know, because then you revisit everything. You say, Well, wait a minute. This is what I thought I was. You know, there's this a big part of me that's been about trying to be a good enough Mom. Do everything right, and then I'll be able to generate a safe outcome. Then I'll be able to do my job as his mother and keep him alive because, isn't that what mothers are supposed to do? And so I felt in large part that I'd failed him, because I didn't save him, and yet, at the same time, I knew that I had done everything in my power, and I also knew I really didn't have that much power to begin with, even though I thought I did. You know, I thought I did, but I never did have that kind of power anyway. And he was so good at proving that to me, because there was really rarely a thing that I would ever suggest that he do that he did, you know. So I did really recognize in the first years of acute grief that I was back in a fight and flight mode. That my nervous system was hijacked because my innocence had been stolen, and bad things can happen. 

Sally McQuillen  28:41  
So it did end up attaching to my youngest child. Because while my youngest child is different, he has some similarities. He's a boy.

Vonne Solis  29:02  
Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  29:03  
And he is impulsive and has attention deficit disorder. And so all of those things started to pull me back into a place where I needed to re-examine and work through being in this position of this default This very like gravitational pull that has been a part of my life, towards fear. And my faith and the foundation of faith that I had previously helped me begin to process through that and let go of it all over again.

Vonne Solis  29:49  
Holy smoley. So this is why I love you, Sally, and I mean that as a traveller. A mom, traveller in this lane. I love all bereaved parents, but I especially connect to you because everything you said, ditto, ditto. There was no alcohol and drugs, though, with Janaya, but everything you talked about. So I've never really said this, except in my book that I my first book, I wrote, I wrote I wrote Divine Healing, and I lay out my story. If anyone's interested, I lay out my whole journey there, about the death and and her and everything, and then I have a self-help practice in that book. So this is to help a wide range of anyone who might be watching this. You dive into the addiction part. I dive into the suicide part. But I let go of her the night before she died Sally. So what did that tell me? I was an Angel Healing practitioner, starting in 2006, but in 2005 I was already working with the angels and and been in metaphysics since I was 25. So 23 years at that point, right? So I decided I could do nothing more than let go. Basically what you're saying. You know, you really don't have control and all that kind of stuff, okay?

Sally McQuillen  31:11  
Yes. So interesting to me that you because you already had that inclination to - you were educated about the metaphysical in such a way that you could - like you need, just as you needed it, in the same way that I needed to sort of reconcile what my relationship was with a higher power, and remember that it was a power of goodness. And that my higher power, whom I choose to call God, was not punishing me. That this was likely destined for the greater good, despite it being excruciating to bear.

Vonne Solis  32:01  
And this is and so while we move into this next topic, which is when we think, or innately know, even subconsciously, they're going. Okay, this kind of plays into that. So me letting go, and here, I want to just say this. Your experience in alcoholism rooted in childhood? So mine was rooted in suicide attempts of my mother, six or five, five or six attempts, what? By the time I was 10.

Sally McQuillen  32:30  
 Okay. 

Vonne Solis  32:31  
So to have my daughter go that way? Huge betrayal. Huge betrayal. And I'd asked her once, once, maybe a few months before she passed, is, You wouldn't do anything to hurt yourself now, right? Now, I didn't come right out and say, You're not going to end your life, or, you know, use the suicide word, which may or may not be banned on YouTube now, I'm not sure. But anyway, and she said no. So there was betrayal for me, but I didn't hold it against her, because another thing you and I have in common is almost revering our children. I'm here to be a mom. That's it. Everything else is like second whatever. I'm here to be the best mom because of wanting to give them the stability. And so that's what I'm saying. Everything you said, and I won't repeat it. I'm completely think like that, and have and remain like that, more or less with with my my son. Although not not a helicopter. Um, overprotective to a point, but deeply, deeply, deeply needing to make sure they're going to be okay and nothing bad is going to happen to them. Because I know bad things can happen.

Sally McQuillen  33:49  
Right.

Vonne Solis  33:50  
And so when you're speaking about that becoming, forming part of your DNA, almost, so that's the physical part. The spiritual, metaphysical part is contracts and coming in with this is the way it's and you're going to do this, and I'm going to do this, and somehow, you know, we're going to, we're going to make a great team. But it's it, even if you are inclined to think this way and have a spiritual practice and adopt this type of, you know, belief system, which I did early on. It was cemented in me to do this, you still have to balance it with the physical. So while I had that metaphysical base, foundation, it was rocked. Because letting go for me absolutely, I felt freed her to let go of me. And she did. The next day. Well, it took years for me to forgive myself. Okay, I'm just putting that out there.

Sally McQuillen  34:50  
 All of what you just said. And... 

Vonne Solis  34:52  
You know?

Sally McQuillen  34:54  
and I do, I think that that contributes to the inevitable guilt that every one of us humans experiences as a response to powerlessness. And there is nothing. There's no greater powerlessness than losing your child. And so, interestingly enough, we think that to blame ourselves, it sort of restores some crazy degree of control over that which has happened and it actually fuels the fight over what is. But we would prefer to fight what is, because what is, when faced with that is, you know, it's an unbearable ask to feel the pain over the loss of a child.

Vonne Solis  35:56  
I know. I know. 

Sally McQuillen  35:58  
So we do torture ourselves. So another layer upon layer of what compounds the suffering in grief is when we have guilt. And I think you and I can cite specific things that seem fairly logical that would account for being, you know, extra feeling extra responsible for not saving them. You know, letting go. Or, in my case, actually having had Christopher ask me what he should do that night, and saying that I thought going to the lake house might be a better idea than going into the city. And then putting myself through tremendous agony over that, even knowing that it just so happened that that particular thing worked out that way, and he wasn't really factoring in what his mama told him to do. And it's brutal. 

Vonne Solis  37:09  
I know.

Sally McQuillen  37:10  
But, when I think about the fact that grief over the loss of a child is a very, very long and probably lifelong, as you alluded to process, when I've seen people stuck in the greatest prolonged suffering, it's usually because they are still taking themselves to task. And we need to find a way to forgive ourselves. 

Vonne Solis  37:46  
Yeah. And I just want to speak very briefly to the point you made. Even when we know, so I'm glad you brought up, because I remember reading that in your book and going, Oh, Sally. You know, and like, she's, she's gonna blame herself for that one. I'm, I'm hoping, and I'm thinking that you've forgiven yourself that. But even if you haven't, and stuff creeps up a few years in, okay? Which it does. It does. I don't know what the triggers are going to be for myself. I'm acting very weird this year at 20 years. It's, it's weird. Why? Because I've never been here before, and I don't know anybody that's got a book that's told me what they felt. It's not that they're telling us what to do. It's just to know I'm not alone in this. This is, I felt it too. Oh, I felt, Oh, cool. And then it's like, you say, you feel kind of like, Okay, I'm not alone. And you know, I'm I'm long past support groups, but books and conversations like this are a good reminder for me and and I, and I'm hoping both of us, Sally, I'm sure, feel the same. That for anybody that's watching or listening to this that's newer in your grief, it is going to be a really tough, painful, painful, excruciating, torturous journey. Um, and I don't think there's any other way to deal with it than walk through that fire. The walk through that pain. And gather tools along the way that we're open to that will help us deal with the torture we put upon ourselves, because no one else is doing it to us. And it's not what our kids want.

Vonne Solis  39:39  
So if you add that other piece in and I know you went to mediums. I know you did because you wrote about it, and I did too in the beginning. And doubted my daughter's visits. She has visited me for 20 years, and the more I trusted those visits, the less they they were needed, because they're a two-edged sword. Painful, beautiful, you know, and you want them. And I've come to a very comfortable place where, as I said, and I don't remember if I said this on on record, on the recording, that my daughter is able to leave me physical manifestations now, which is amazing. So, and she doesn't need to do that all the time. Okay? Like you don't need to do that, babe. It's okay. It's okay. I know you're here. I know you're right here, right here, beside me. And they are right beside us, and in some cases, still within us, if our energy is emerging from the afterlife and the physical, which is what is happening with me. And I had a wonderful reading in October that clarified some stuff for me that I'll speak offline to you about that if you want. But she because I rarely, rarely go for, rarely will go for a reading or any anything like that anymore. And this one I needed to and it put the pieces together for me that I was looking for in my life. But it has to do sneak peek, has to do with co-existing in lifetimes and energy from where our children are, but also they're able to be, you know, in our own gravitational life force. It's very interesting stuff.

Sally McQuillen  41:17  
I love that because I feel as if I've just deepened my belief over time that Christopher is very much not just with me in spirit, but I have felt and I've used Helen Keller's quote, which is, you know, All that we love deeply becomes a part of us. I do feel myself trying to embody my son's strengths and keep my heart open and love as freely as he did.

Vonne Solis  41:50  
 Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  41:51  
And so I think that's really powerful, and I I need reminders. You know, you talked about the nature of grief and the nature of all the layers of it. We go in and then we come out. We go in, and then we come out. And so to me, this idea of healing is to just sort of be more like recognizing the nature of it and sort of going along. You know, I've heard somebody say, sort of succumbing to it, but this sort of leaning into the pain. Knowing it won't last. That it does lighten. And and then, and then, also appreciating that it there will be more of it that might either catch, catch up to me at an unanticipated or anticipated time. 

Vonne Solis  42:47  
Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  42:47  
And just starting to kind of surrender to.

Vonne Solis  42:53  
Yeah. I think it's great and and when one of the tips I can maybe share with others that are interested is about, I think, three years ago now. So about 17 year mark, and it might happen for someone at the five year mark, you know, whatever. But so two things. One, I started to celebrate myself on ANGEL anniversaries and my daughter's birthday. And I started to sort of remember how much I had taken on in this life, and to really appreciate myself for the burden I could carry. And then that shifted, instead of just having it be about her leaving, her, leaving her, leaving, okay - all of which is valid, it's exhausting, and I can't do anything about it. But when I started to shift it, and this took time. This took time because I had to deal with all my transgressions. Forgive myself them. And when I was able to do that, which actually happened with me writing my last book, that was my letter to my daughter, okay? And everything I needed that was my cathartic book. Not the first one, like people would say, Oh, it must have been cathartic. No, it was not. It was gruelling. So you know, that shift for me is like, Okay, you can be gentler with yourself. And I'm talking genuinely. I'm not talking just, you know, mouthing the words. And really at a heartfelt place go, Girl, you have done great! And you are a good mom. Okay? 

Vonne Solis  44:30  
Because the other piece here is, let's turn for a moment to our surviving children. I have had to be reminded over and over and over and over again that I am a good mom, okay? And it doesn't matter who tells you that. It, you have to believe it yourself. You have to believe it and live it and just kind of go, Yes, I am a good mom. I AM a GREAT mom. And once I and it took me, you know, maybe a couple years to really kind of accept that. Because let's face it, folks, it can feel really good to punish ourselves. Hmm? And in therapy, I'm sure you'll see a lot of people that it feels really good to punish ourselves, but it's just not a healthy place to stay. Right?

Sally McQuillen  45:21  
I couldn't agree more. And I also, this is just the message that I needed today. Because what I'm discovering as I put my book Reaching For Beautiful out into the world, is that I've been doing, doing, doing in honour of my son, and that makes it helps me feel as if I'm a good enough mother because I'm, if nothing else, a doer. And that something about letting go organically, determining if this book gets into the hands of people who will be helped. It feels as if it's not enough sometimes, because I'm not as frantically busy as I know how to be. And I need to celebrate, and I'd be the first person to tell anyone, and one of the tools that helped me most was to be gentler with myself. But it's interesting that nine and a half years later, I'd forgotten that message to myself, and some of the more you know, torturous self-criticism. And, you know, the inner critic starts to sort of knock at your door, and we need to return to that. We need to return to the things that work. And I need that now.

Vonne Solis  46:58  
Yeah, and, and, you know, and you might forget again and you have the advantage of being in the business of therapy. So for the people that aren't and the people that don't have an interest in and a lot of bereaved parents I've met over the years refuse to go to therapy. And I even went to therapy, but you know what I went for? Relationship therapy. Ha! And after maybe years of it sporadically, and, you know, consistent, and then leave it and consistent, because the changes I wanted weren't happening, I realized, man, no. Um, first of all, here's, here's a little uh, side bit. And I'd love to know what you just think. And we're not telling people what to do. Just in hindsight, what I would have done is gone for family therapy. We have a son together, and that unit of this family bond has kept us together when many, many, many things over the years, we've been married 34 years since Janaya's death 20 years ago, should have and would have torn us apart. There was no reason to stay together because he wasn't experiencing the same grief as me, because he wasn't her biological dad. And that doesn't mean he didn't love her. It meant for me, no one knows my pain, you know? And on the one hand, I was really glad he didn't, but on the other hand, I was like a little angry about that. So having our son together now, you know, has kept us together, because those values have not left me. 

Vonne Solis  48:29  
So Sally, our values don't change no matter what's taken us down, and it's the people that are trying to help us the most, sometimes that we obviously can't see that, and sometimes we don't even want their help. But what I wanted to say is, I believe we have to get ourselves to this place of, you know, quiet within, to be able to celebrate ourselves. And so when we're very busy and we're doing, doing doing, okay. When something makes us stop. For me, it was a disability. I was I also had a job in the government, and I had to go on a disability in September 2015, so that stopped everything. Boom. And I've needed reminders 10 years later. So my reminders came about two years ago that again, I found myself doing doing, doing doing. And I reached a point, and this has to coincide, too with your lifestyle, folks. And you know what you can afford to do, being realistic. Do you have to work? Do you not have to work? But even if you do, there are still things about your day and what you do in your life, and who you surround yourself with, and all these other things that you can manage and make choices based on what brings you the most peace and relief. And relief, although we weren't not necessarily talking about that today, but it was a huge piece for me. An eye opener for me when a psychologist was telling me, You're pretty hard on yourself. You, you, you know you might want to think about some relief there. And that was several years ago. Big piece. A cup of tea, a cup of tea. 

Vonne Solis  50:12  
And today I today, now it's what excites me today. What am I doing that excites me? And again, this is going to depend on one's lifestyle, how you can fit that in. For a while, it was joy, and then that got kind of repetitious. And now it's what's what excites me today. And I make choices based only on that. Okay. So even if you, even if you are working, it's maybe what excites you about your job. But anyway, moving on a little bit, I just want to say, do you have any kind of, we talked a lot, but when we are worried about our kids. I think all those things you talked about and letting go, I think we've spoken to that brilliantly. We aren't really in control. We have to trust. Have our faith. And I'm going to turn to some self-care now. But I'd lastly, just say, and Sally say what you would like to about this. Whatever is going to happen to our kids is going to happen to our kids. Like it or not. Our surviving kids, okay? We've already lost the one. Some people have lost more than one. And for me, I've done a couple of little things because of this excessive worry for my son. So he allowed me to access his find my phone, so I know where he is. He's 33 and he still lets his mom do that. Okay, bless him, right? 

Vonne Solis  51:36  
So the point I'm making is and Sally, you may want to add to this. If you are an incessantly worried parent and living in fear of what may or may not happen to your child? I would just say, try and find some ways. I would even tell them how worried you are, but know that it let them know it's not their responsibility for what's your baggage. And just see if you can, see if you can negotiate something that would help you both be comfortable, to ease the worry and the anxiety. So I don't tell my son how worried I am. And because I know he's not going to watch this episode, I'll share that I do look at Find My Phone often and go, Oh, he's okay. But I don't tell him I'm doing that. But he probably knows. You know, he probably knows.

Sally McQuillen  52:26  
 Thriving is such a, you know, from a physical standpoint, it's a PTSD symptom. You know, so much of what we're talking about is, is how do we manage our PTSD? And...

Vonne Solis  52:43  
 Yes.

Sally McQuillen  52:43  
if we're in fight or flight, then there is going to be this certain degree of freneticism. And what do I do? And worry and and then it's about, Okay, I need to name it for myself, as you did. I need to recognize that this is a powerful force for me, which I do recognize. And how do I take care of myself around it? And how do I carve out some pause, pauses, and, you know, reflect. One of the things that I'm really pleased it took me as long as it did to write, you know, my memoir is that I could reflect on my childhood and how that had a bearing on my parenting. And just different insights and things that I could reconcile along the way, as I reflected through writing. And I could think more formally about what tools I needed. And look, everybody grieves differently. Even though my husband and I, this was our shared firstborn, and we both couldn't have loved him any more than we did and both of us fiercely. 

Vonne Solis  54:07  
Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  54:08  
 We are different humans and different, we have different ways of coping. And so grief is is lonely in some regards. 

Vonne Solis  54:19  
Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  54:19  
 So what can, what do I need to restore a feeling of safety because I'm afraid. I am. And and what do I need to do with my other children to sort of navigate, as you said, Okay, I'm gonna let you know that and I think my, my surviving children know, you know, mom, mom needs to say that she loves you every time you leave the house. You know, in other words, there's certain things that are kind of just part of the deal, you know, that are just indulge me.

Vonne Solis  55:00  
You know, I enjoy I can see the eye roll.

Sally McQuillen  55:03  
Absolutely there's an eye roll. And with my youngest, there is, you know, forget that whole find a friend thing. But you better believe that's part of what we need just to kind of give ourselves this little bit of relief that you talked about. Ohh. 

Vonne Solis  55:21  
Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  55:22  
He just his flight just landed, or whatever.

Vonne Solis  55:24  
Oh, my son's travelling today. Thank you for saying that. No, I'll be checking the flight status right after we end our episode. Anyway, you just go, you know, mommy's nuts. Couple years ago, he said, Mom, you might want to take some CBD. And I'm like, No, I'm totally No, anti drug, everything, anti whatever. But we also joke a little bit and you know, and laughter and humour when you can reach that point. But the point I'm making is let your kids in on the tragedy. We made the mistake 20 years ago, kind of shutting our son out because he was only 13 when his sister died. And I regret that. I totally regret shutting him out because I thought he couldn't handle it. But in fact, he did try and handle it all alone. And it has to my way of thinking impacted him today in the in the sense that he's kept it all within. And I'm not proud of that, but again, I'm not, I did the best I could. 

Sally McQuillen  56:30  
And I would say...

Vonne Solis  56:31  
He doesn't talk about it. Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  56:33  
No. I would also say that despite my inclination with my kids, of course, as a working therapist to talk about our feelings. That's not exactly you know, even if you had, again, I'm going to talk you out of that regret, because even if you had had the conversation or promoted it. It still isn't an easy thing. And everybody does, and especially young boys. You know, William was he was 16 when Christopher died. So young boys aren't aren't skillful any more than lots of people about suddenly expressing all of their feelings. And, you know, they get a lot of societal, you know, messaging that that that's not strong. And so we all need to sort of flip that on its head a little bit, and where possible, give voice to and be vulnerable around all of our our grief and and and hopefully promote more conversation around it.

Vonne Solis  57:50  
Yeah. And you know, people you may not get the support you're looking for from the people you expect it from huge things, so don't look for it from the people who can't give it to you. Find it elsewhere. And if it's from a support group, if it's from therapy, Dr Sally. No, but, you know, I'm joking a little bit there, but you know what I mean. Find it where you feel comfortable. Nowadays we have many, many communities on Facebook and that. They didn't exist many years ago. Now they do. So it's where you feel that you can express yourself. And I had online friends and a prayer board I went to that really saved me in the first three years. 

Vonne Solis  58:23  
Sally, I just want to, we're getting to the top of the hour if we haven't passed it. And not that I'm holding, you know, to rigid time restrictions here, because I want you to be comfortable, but I am aware of your time. And thank you once again for being with me. You know, we've talked about letting go. I want to talk a little bit about faith. I want to, you know, ask you so your journey is nine and a half years in. What is what had, do you think faith is important to actually the journey of walking through this fire that is grief? Walking through the pain? Keeping going, knowing and if you think actually that, I don't know what's coming down the pike, but I'm here to face it. What do you want to say about that?

Sally McQuillen  59:15  
You know, for me, it has been a critical ingredient to being able to survive this. I think you know, David Kessler, who's a renowned grief expert, speaks to the importance of finding meaning. And so I think in our own ways, we need to find meaning. We need to determine what like I needed to determine why I? Why am I here, and what am I meant to do and and I did hope that my book Reaching For Beautiful would serve other people. At the time I wrote it, I wasn't thinking about, you know, bereaved parents like yourself having to revisit the pain of child loss. I was I was more thinking about, Oh, this is, this is what it feels like to me, and this is how I'm coping. But Christopher became a conduit for me to this higher power. He helped me kind of take what is had always been, spiritually so abstract, and give it a little bit more light. And I needed to be able to and continue to practice this discipline of looking to the light. And I feel like Chris takes me there. And so anyone grieving to find a means by which they can shift from their guilt, remorse, self-pity, suffering, into a place of gratitude, of love. You know, love really is the only thing that matters in the end. And so I love Christopher with all of my heart each  day, and I attempt to demonstrate my love for everyone who's who's here. And that that helps me.

Vonne Solis  1:01:36  
 Doesn't it, like I had this profound ability to feel unconditional love for everybody when Janaya died. Immediately. Immediately when Janaya died. 

Sally McQuillen  1:01:48  
Yes. 

Vonne Solis  1:01:49  
Right? You too. It's like you love people. You love them. 

Sally McQuillen  1:01:53  
It was magical.

Vonne Solis  1:01:54  
Yes. So her death definitely, it brought that out in me. But I also want to just, we're going to close in a minute here, but Sally, I just, and I could talk to you forever, but there is a gift that they give us when they pass. And that, for me was and because she visited me, and I do want to, and I know Joe, can, you know, has this communications with Chris. And I don't know, do you see Chris? Like do you have visits with Chris? Did you ever make that happen or him like, have him come to you? Because he would be trying, for sure.

Sally McQuillen  1:02:28  
I feel him. I'm so much more of an intuitive and so I don't necessarily hear him. I feel...

Vonne Solis  1:02:37  
Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  1:02:37  
 his presence, and I remain very open to any sign. And I have so many different signs that are indicative of...

Vonne Solis  1:02:47  
Yeah. 

Sally McQuillen  1:02:47  
him being close.

Vonne Solis  1:02:50  
Well, I don't want to intrude, but he came to me when I was in the bathroom before, and he had this little smirk on his face, and he just said to tell you how proud he is of you. He is so proud of you. And I get chills because, like, I feel him kind of, I don't know, almost in a slouchy position. I get him with a hand in a pocket or something, but it's sort of, he's got a little bit of a smirk, and he's kind of watching you and, yeah, really proud, but kind of holding back, letting you know, how much he's proud of you. How proud of you he is. I don't know there's some kind of, it's not attention, but it's sort of this thing that Ah, I'll let her figure it out. You know, it's kind of cute. 

Sally McQuillen  1:03:31  
It sounds so much like him.

Vonne Solis  1:03:32  
He's kind of cute. I did medium work, okay? Like, I did a training with James Van Praagh who's one of the most internationally renowned mediums.

Sally McQuillen  1:03:40  
 I know of him.

Vonne Solis  1:03:41  
I spent a week doing a medium work with a group of 100 people, and they just came. I was very good at it. I'm not gonna lie. I was extremely like, on par with all the readings and stuff, but it scared me so much. And I would do them with my eyes closed. And then James came up to me and goes, open your eyes. Open your eyes. He goes, this is an experience for them to come through you and experience things. And I went, Okay, fine. So I then I did the rest of the readings, because we were doing the Monday to Friday with my eyes open, and I liked it. But you take on the personality and the energy of the Spirit. And I was going like, I and because I'd been working with the angels for ten years, nine years at that point, I which the energy is just very different, I was like, No, I don't want to make this my life's work. Like it's okay to have them pop in once in a while but I didn't want to go that route. So I never, I still, if I feel someone and there's a message I'm going to do, you know, share that. But that's why I light the candle. And so I invited both our kids to be here today, and so that's why he popped in.

Sally McQuillen  1:04:56  
So appreciate your gift and having brought him to me with his little half smile, and...

Vonne Solis  1:05:03  
Yes, exactly. It's, it's that, it's, there's always that he has to maintain a little bit of mystery about himself. And whether it's really a mystery or not, that doesn't matter. It's, he needs to think there's a mystery about him. And you might be going, I can see totally right through you, Chris, but we'll pretend there's a mystery there. It feels like that to me. I don't know if it is, but that feels what, that's what it feels like. 

Sally McQuillen  1:05:28  
Yeah, about right. Keep her guessing. Keep my mother on her toes.

Vonne Solis  1:05:35  
Yeah, and it's un, it's just unspoken how much our children love us. For me and anyone in the suicide survivor, suicide loss survivor world, everyone who's done mediumship for me and brought my daughter through, and I'll take it. And at that, James Van Praagh week, people brought her through. One and they you know, and you don't know who's coming through. You don't know. And so you just describe things, and then they'll go, oh, that sounds like my so and so and so that's what's cool about it, okay? But anyway, those that do end their life, everyone that's ever done any reading about my daughter, or they've had readings, or whatever, they deeply, deeply regret the pain they've caused. It never becomes about how people leave, but more the pain they have left us with. Their their passing has left because they don't know. And when we have things like our children or other loved ones die from accidents or illness. Sudden and there's no time, but it's a death that makes sense I wonder if there's somehow an, I don't want to say easier, but a more acceptable way of making peace with it, because you have an answer. Well, this is how they died. And in suicide, you never get that. And most you know I didn't get a note.

Sally McQuillen  1:07:02  
To a certain, I mean, I can't, obviously I can't speak for you.

Vonne Solis  1:07:07  
 Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  1:07:07  
 But I can, I can speak as a clinician.

Vonne Solis  1:07:11  
 Yes.

Sally McQuillen  1:07:12  
 The fact that and I lost a dear friend to suicide. I can speak to the fact that, and as someone who suffers from depression.

Vonne Solis  1:07:26  
 Yeah.

Sally McQuillen  1:07:28  
 That they're not in their right minds in that moment. And literally thinking in terms of the fact that anyone left would behind would be better off without being able to comprehend the pain that, so that I'm that I'm so certain of. I just am certain of.

Vonne Solis  1:07:48  
Well, actually, just on a brief aside, I did watch a YouTube video a year or two ago from a top psychiatrist in the UK, and I actually did an episode on it, in one of my very early, early, early podcast. I might put a link to it if anyone's interested, and I remember, but that they said what you said. But the other piece to it is they don't have research, and they'll never get it as to what's happening in the brain at that moment. They can't, because they don't study it. How could you. See? So it's a conundrum, but they do agree, the brain is, I'll say, misfiring, right? 

Sally McQuillen  1:08:25  
Absolutely.

Vonne Solis  1:08:26  
And I think it's a I personally, as a mom, think it's a protective measure against their survival instinct. What's happening.

Sally McQuillen  1:08:37  
Yeah, you're onto something. And what was the other thing I was just thinking about? I think, I think I was thinking about the fact that, again, you know, we talked before about how I wanted to be able to have people know what was happening on the inside of me. Because I think for many people who do struggle with depression? They're coping so actively just to survive feeling the way that they do, that it actually interferes with people's ability to see them. So that so many people left behind by someone who's suicidal think I didn't know. How I couldn't tell or have some inkling, but I didn't have the full picture. That's because they're doing everything in their power to try to stay.

Vonne Solis  1:09:32  
Yeah, we're all blindsided by it. So, you know, and and do I wish that none of our kids would ever die by any reason, and that they would be these perfect, beautiful, pure souls that they come in as? Of course. But the reality is, our kids are dying every day due to one thing or another. It's not going to stop. You and I, Sally, do not live in an exclusively small community group. It is one as they say that you pay the highest price to be in this club, but it's not as small. I mean, it happens all the time. So I'm still astounded by the the growing numbers of bereaved parents about the silence around it. So I am going to encourage all viewers, listeners, to get Sally's book Reaching For Beautiful. On a last note, what was that sent - what is that statement Chris used to say? If you're looking for beauty, you'll find it.   I can't. You tell me.

Sally McQuillen  1:10:28  
Yes, I'll tell you. It's a great place to finish out. It's: "Life is honestly so beautiful, as long as we allow it to be." 

Vonne Solis  1:10:38  
Yeah, I got chills when you said that. Say it once more.

Sally McQuillen  1:10:42  
Life is honestly so beautiful, as long as you allow it to be. 

Vonne Solis  1:10:48  
That's Christopher's message to all of us, and what a wise soul. Okay, Sally? Really our kids, I just want you to know wrapped up in so much love that they were wise. Probably old souls. And we didn't have them for long. But I'm just starting now to feel so blessed that Janaya was in my life for the time she was in it. I haven't been able to say that until, actually, right now. It's the first time I said that, but mean it. But mean it, because I get it, but I couldn't say it before because of all the pain attached to it. 

Sally McQuillen  1:11:30  
Yes.

Vonne Solis  1:11:31  
But I feel blessed. And I feel blessed to have met you and talked with you and all other bereaved parents out there. Moms, dads in-between. Doesn't matter. We love you. We're sending you much inspiration and hope, because if you and I Sally are still standing here today, right?

Sally McQuillen  1:11:51  
Beings that send so much light. And what a privilege.

Vonne Solis  1:11:55  
You know, and I won't go so far as to say thriving for some people, but I'm looking to thrive going forward as I begin my 21st year and that's another process of letting go. And so we do continually let go. And, and it's, you know, being aware of that and, and it's okay to let go, right Sally? It's okay to love yourself and let go, right?

Sally McQuillen  1:12:22  
It is, especially when you know that they're always with you. It's sort of, it's kind of that, that paradox, right? 

Vonne Solis  1:12:32  
It is Because so many people can't feel their children, but they, they try so hard. So anything you see that is a bit weird and you kind of go, I don't know, I don't know. Take it. If you think it's a sign, it's a sign, it's a sign. And so, yeah, they love us. We love them. Sally, your book Reaching For Beautiful, again, I'm going to have a link to your websitesallymcquillen.com. And your book is available. It's newly published in April so congrats to you, Sally. But your book is it available on Amazon? You want to tell us where people can get it?

Sally McQuillen  1:13:10  
Amazon for certain and really just about anywhere books are sold. Reaching For Beautiful, A Memoir of Loving and Losing a Wild Child. 

Vonne Solis  1:13:21  
Yeah. So again, we'll have that link in the show notes. Thank you again, Sally. It has been an absolute honour to both meet you and have this time with you. Thank you.

Sally McQuillen  1:13:33  
Thank you, Vonne.