Ep. 7 When your child feels bullied and/or different

A conversation between two women trying to make the planet a better place. Deeann talks about bullying in the alopecia world and Vonne discusses the impact on our children and youth who feel different from their peers based on her experience after losing her daughter to suicide in 2005.

TIMESTAMP:

00:00 Vonne introduces the episode and welcomes Deeann to the show.
03:38  Vonne introduces her daughter Janaya and gives an overview of her views on bullying and what you can expect from the episode.
06:03  Deeann discusses the "Oscars slap", the buzz it created both in and outside of the alopecia community and the missed teaching moment at the Oscars.
13:45 Vonne shares her thoughts on bullying.
16:17  Deeann elaborates on bullying in general of kids living with alopecia and explains what it's like (she's lived with alopecia since she was seven years old).
19:43   Vonne and Deeann share a robust conversation about the specific problems kids face in the school, on the playground and elsewhere being bullied or feeling different from their peers, what is being missed at every level and what we can do to stop it by sharing the responsibility for change.
31:32  Deeann shares the very public story of a young girl living with alopecia who recently took her life as a result of being bullied, despite all the attempts her family made to lobby for change in the school.
33:29  It's not only peanut allergies we need to worry about. Vonne discusses a need for policy changes in the schools to create inclusivity for kids and teens living with invisible differences where it may be equally life-threatening and talks with Deeann about what we can do to create more compassion, empathy and awareness at all levels.
41:23  We're not okay! Five minutes makes a difference! The reality of living with the pain from bullying or being a parent of a child who feels or looks different and excluded.
46:07  The importance of support, what we still lack in resources in both the suicide and alopecia communities, and the impact of  feeling different.
55:24  If you have a child that is different in any way, you're going to be worried about something.
57:58  Deeann shares tips to create change and a great resources for the classroom.
1:01:02  Vonne talks about organic suicide support groups popping up and the practice of post-vention support.
1:03:47  Every voice counts! Deeann shares her resources.
1:06:12  One last thing ... the harm of jokes and the diseases we don't make fun of. What's the difference?
1:07:55  Vonne closes out the episode. Thanks for watching or listening! Thanks to Deeann.

Deeann's website:
www.alopecialife.com

Episode 5: Loss and Grief: we're not that different
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2021182/11070742

Deeann's book on Amazon:
Head On, Stories of Alopecia 

Vonne's website:
https://vonnesolis.com/vonne-solis-about/

Vonne's books:
https://vonnesolis.com/vonne-solis-books/

Vonne's resources:
https://vonnesolis.com/resources/

Subscribe to the podcast! Share your favourite episodes! Connect with Vonne on LinkedIn and Facebook.

Transcript

Vonne Solis  0:00  
Welcome to another episode of Grief Talk. Everything you want to know about grief and more. I'm your host, Vonne Solis. As an author, life transformation coach, online instructor and bereaved mom since 2005. I'll be bringing you great content that is informative, inspiring and practical. Whether you have suffered a loss or other adversity, stay tuned and tapped in as I cover a variety of topics to help you get where you want to go on your journey to heal and grow.

Vonne Solis  0:31  
Today's guest is Deeann Graham, the award winning author of head on stories of alopecia and an alopecia coach, consultant, educator and advocate. She was first diagnosed with alopecia areata when she was seven years old, Dan published hit on stories of alopecia to share stories and photos of people around the world who are living with alopecia in order to provide a broad perspective on the journey of hair loss. Educating communities in order to empower others who have been diagnosed, especially in the beauty and medical industries is an important part of Deeann's outreach. She is also the host of the alopecia life podcast, where she continues to educate and share stories to help others realize that they are not alone.

Vonne Solis  1:18  
So welcome to another episode of Grief Talk everything you want to know about grief and more. Today, I invited back, Deeann Graham, and we had a conversation a short while ago and I'm actually going to be linking or at least providing the link to that episode in the description below. But today, rather than a more formal interview, Deeann and I are just going to have a straight up conversation between two women who have experiences in the topics that we're going to be talking about today. But first of all, I just want to say, Hey, hi, Deeann. And thank you for coming back on my show.

Deeann Graham  1:56  
I'm happy to be here. Thanks, Vonne.

Vonne Solis  1:58  
Excellent.

Vonne Solis  2:00  
So Deeann and I know each other in the business world and I think we're becoming fast friends. And a couple of events have happened in her world, which is a world of living with alopecia. And unless you're under a rock, you will know all about certain events that have happened. We're right now in early April and happened around the Oscars. And we're going to be talking a little bit about the effects of that. And we'll surprise you about what we're going to say. But that was a trigger point for us. And the other thing that happened in her world, which I'm going to let Deeann talk about, to the degree that she wants to and as openly as she wants to, because it is a sensitive subject, is a suicide of a of a young 12 year old lady, young lady who was bullied living with alopecia. And it did bring some media attention in the United States.

Vonne Solis  2:55  
And as much as we can we're going to dive into the topic of bullying, suicide as a result of bullying, mostly, I think related to children, teens and young people, and then move on into I want to talk a little bit about when the focus gets lost. And Deeann I'm sure you're interested in that too. So when the media runs with a story and uses it almost in my view for clickbait. Sometimes it's for the good of you know, could be fundraising. But mostly it is almost like driving by staring by I forget what they call it. But when you drive by an accident and you just sit there and stare. 

Vonne Solis  3:38  
And for those of us that are on the other end of it, I lost my 22 year old daughter to suicide. Her name was Janaya. I'm going to be talking a little bit about Janaya today because I am certain she was bullied. I was just saying to Deeann before we got the recording going that bullying is not just taking place in the backyard. Bullying does not just look like a punch or a slap. 

Vonne Solis  4:02  
Bullying is exclusion. Bullying is staring. Bullying is pointing. And my daughter was mixed race, half West Indian half white. And there was a lot of racism that she faced. And I am certain because of her personality and being very, very shy and very quiet and also very brilliant, and moving around a little bit, she couldn't really find her place. So there was some bullying that also took place in my view in the classroom, even by the teachers. And we're going to dive into that a little bit. So really looking at what bullying is. What it means. 

Vonne Solis  4:43  
And Deeann is going to share from her experience in the alopecia world, which as I said, unless you've been living under a rock, you will now probably know what alopecia is. So that might be one thing the media has, has brought to the attention of the masses. But digging deep underneath that I want to start Deeann with just basically, again, welcoming you to the show. Letting you have a free voice. This is not an interview. This is two women, both of us moms. Both of us living with our experiences. And for me as a bereaved mom, I'm not bullied, but I do feel isolated. And I feel all the same triggers that you know of pain that I am assuming my daughter would have felt.

Vonne Solis  5:31  
And I want to talk about what we can do to stop bullying. And I'm just going to do my head to header up to that is, I do think a lot of it starts in the home, but extends to the entire community. So opening up the floor to you, Deeann, start with whatever you want to because we might be jumping around because there's a lot of stuff to talk about. So I'm just going to invite you to start wherever you want to. And yeah, you go girl.

Deeann Graham  6:03  
All right. So I think let's see, where should we jump in? I think like you said, if you're if no one's living under a rock, they do know what happened at the Oscars. And, you know, I actually want to talk a little bit less about the act of what happened and what's more behind it. Right. We heard the comment and then most people, I mean, even within the alopecia community, a lot of people did not realize that Jada Pinkett Smith is living with alopecia areata. So and any form of alopecia right. I mean, there's been a lot of talk about that too. Well, she doesn't really have alopecia areata, she has this and I'm like, this is hair loss. She's struggling with it. She's she's talked about it in the media. 

Deeann Graham  6:45  
So you know, her peers, in all likelihood, did know that she was living with hair loss. And so Chris Rock says a comment about GI Jane. And, you know, it was not a very good comment or joke. It was just a comment. And Will Smith laughed at it. We all saw that and, and that has a lot of talk about it, too. But then I saw Jada Pinkett Smith's face, and I was like, Oh, this hit hard. And I knew me and you know, millions of other people felt what she felt in that moment. Oh, here I am on the world stage being taunted. Right. And I was like, Whoa, and was that serious? Absolutely. Was it a joke? Should we have - there's so many different things that people are talking about. But in the end, you know, when Will Smith went up and smacked him across the face? You know, a lot of us were like, Oh, he deserved it. Right. And a lot of other people are saying, Oh, we shouldn't handle things in that way.

Deeann Graham  7:47  
But the real piece of it was Jada Pinkett Smith behind it right? And it all really has gotten a little bit lost with the act of what Will Smith did, smacking Chris Rock across the face. So. So there's that piece. 

Deeann Graham  8:04  
And subsequently, we've had a lot of memes, a lot of follow up in the media. And we're still talking about it over a week later, which, which really does show a lot about what people don't know about alopecia. And the fact that people are talking about it now. And this isn't just within our, you know, in the United States. We're talking about it in the UK, in Australia, because people around the world are living with alopecia and understand what it is to have this happen to them publicly.

Vonne Solis  8:33  
So just a quick question that I want to pop in there Deeann. Is this a good thing? Like I get that we're not going to, well, I don't you focus the focus on the the that's violence and maybe the violent community or the abusive community, when people abuse you're going to jump in on that whole thing of the slap part of it. But is this a good thing? I mean, and this might be a tough question to answer that that Will Smith slap of Chris Rock has brought attention to the alopecia world? Is this a good thing?

Deeann Graham  9:03  
I  think so. Yeah. 

Vonne Solis  9:04  
Okay.

Deeann Graham  9:05  
I think absolutely it is. And of course, we don't want to ever associate violence with with raising awareness, right?

Deeann Graham  9:12  
I think it really does speak to the the secondary stuff that's going on in the home when you lose your hair, right? I mean, your husband, your kids, your friends, they all see how people react to you in public, and feel free to say whatever it is, and and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, that he did that. In that moment. I just feel like it's a real real moment.

Vonne Solis  9:38  
Exactly.

Deeann Graham  9:39  
Oh, oh my gosh, you know, I'm not putting up with this and smack you know, how many times have other people wanted to do that in our lives and, and instead, there's been glares or there's been Hey, stop staring or, you know, a moment to teach which was lost in this in this moment. It was really a great opportunity to teach right? I mean he could have done a million other things he could have. I don't know how many paces was that, that he took to get up there? Seven? And he had that many opportunities to say, Wait a minute. Instead, I'm going to embrace Chris Rock, you know, whisper in his ear, or I'm not going to say anything. And I'm going to just sit there and talk to him later. I mean, I don't know. It is what it is right? It came down to what happened. And people are talking about alopecia and not necessarily in a positive way, either. There's some great positive things coming out of it. A lot of interviews happening. But you know, we just had something with I think it's Bill Maher, Bill Mayer,

Vonne Solis  10:38  
Bill Maher. What did he say?

Deeann Graham  10:40  
Oh, he? Well, I can't swear.

Vonne Solis  10:43  
No. 

Deeann Graham  10:44  
But he basically said that if she didn't want to get ridiculed publicly, that she should just put an effing wig on it. I mean, a nd, and so 

Vonne Solis  10:54  
Ohh, Bill

Deeann Graham  10:54  
Harshness of the words, but that is, those are words we hear all the time. Well, if you don't want to get talked about, if you don't want to be questioned, if you don't want to, then you should just cover that up. I mean, the fact that he said, actually ridiculed, or made fun of was, was a bit. I mean, you just like, oh, this is the way that we are walking in the world, right. And so that, that, and that's been more recent, in the last couple days, that has come up.

Vonne Solis  11:20  
I'm very sad to hear about that because what in, in my view, what happens is when when people like public figures, do even make a joke, are sarcastic, you know, it's and whatever else negative, it does actually have an impact and influences the unruly behavior of other people who don't understand people who are living with conditions, vulnerabilities, you name it. Whatever, whatever we're living with. And here's something I'm going to throw at you right now before I forget. If this is impacting the majority of adults that I'm going to assume, I know, we're never supposed to assume, but I'm going to maybe presume that are posting on Facebook. That are having these reactions. And the conversation that I've seen has been more around adults, a few adult women speaking out who have adult alopecia as adults, what the heck is this doing to the poor kids?

Deeann Graham  12:23  
Right, right.

Vonne Solis  12:24  
Have you seen that in your community? Like any reference to that?

Deeann Graham  12:29  
I mean, this, every single post within social media that I'm part of, was was talking about this right? And is, it's dying down a little bit. But I did see one particular post that said, a mother woke up the next morning and had to talk to her daughter, and I don't even know how old her daughter was, and said, Listen, there's probably going to be some GI Jane jokes going around, that you need to be aware of. And then she had to kind of explain what happened. And I'm like, Oh, my God, you know, why? Why are we having to do this? And guess what, that little girl went to school the next day. And it happened. She I mean, exactly like the mother anticipated, it happened. And no matter how much we want to believe that people are good, and people are going to, you know, not just latch on to something like this, it still happened. And and you kind of think, excuse me, you kind of think, okay, you know, yeah, people are gonna rise above. People are going to do this, but it's easy to just say, Okay, we're gonna just say you're a GI Jane. I mean, and GI Jane itself isn't, you know, it's a strong, powerful woman. And you know, this.

Vonne Solis  13:39  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  13:39  
It's not become that right? It's not about that anymore. It's about the look of of her.

Vonne Solis  13:45  
Well, is it not, though, if I can sort of bring it back to the whole thing about bullying in general. So, the slap highlights the bullying. The bullying, for right now might be centered more in media around the term GI Jane. But I'm pretty sure there's other types of bullying that have been going on for a really, really long time. That if you even want to speak to that. What's going on in school yards. How they're treating kids, and I know we - I opened up with the suicide of the young lady age 12, which, that's where I've said to you, those parents have crossed over into my world. Hence, we have an ongoing connection you and I Deeann, you know, in our different worlds. But I'm just saying like, in terms of the bullying and in terms of the bullying that leads to suicides of young people, which is the case for a lot of of suicides in my community, teen and children. What are some of the other things? 

Vonne Solis  14:59  
So the slap by a celebrity of a comedian highlights the bullying. But what are some of the things that have been going around in your world for if you want to focus on kids, teens, adults, all three, that you either even experienced yourself as a child. I know you've been living with alopecia since you were a young child, and what the heck we can do about it, because I'm on the suicide end of it. And surely that is not the result that we want people. Right? And audience, viewers, listeners, you don't want that for your kid. And and while it's so important to understand what's truly going on in your child's life with whatever they happen to be living with. However they look. Whatever makes them a target. You need to be aware and we'll talk about that when we close out. What parents, families, school systems, you know, the whole community that's in our children's lives. In all of our lives, how they can better support us. But yeah, so going back, if you could sort of speak to it's not just about the GI Jane joke. What else are they dealing with?

Deeann Graham  16:17  
I mean, in in the most simple way, right? Kids, kids and adults will latch on to things like asking questions to draw attention to what's going on. I mean, you cannot get away from it on the playground when you're young or adults. And children will be saying, Oh, you're bald. You don't your hair is weird, you know, depending on what stage of hair loss you're in. And so kids can't just be kids playing on the playground. And they have to answer these questions. And I think, you know, children are given being given an opportunity to advocate for themselves, but do we want them to have to be able to do that? You know?

Vonne Solis  16:55  
No, no.

Deeann Graham  16:57  
It's why don't why can't I just go down the slide without being questioned by an adult why I left the house looking like this. And you know, why my parents let me, you know, cut my hair in this manner. And it's just kind of an amazing it's an opportunity, I guess, to, for parents to just go talk to their kids and go, Oh, you know, yeah, they have this, but, but why is it? I mean, after all this will, where will there be playgrounds where parents are just aware of this and can tell their kids if they ask, if they come to them on the playground and say, I wonder why that, you know, that kid doesn't have hair like me, right? And they'll say, oh, maybe it's alopecia.

Deeann Graham  17:40  
And a lot of times, that is all that kids need. They need a name to it. This is

Vonne Solis  17:44  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  17:45  
what I talk about so much. They, they don't need to know what alopecia is. They Oh, it's alopecia. Oh, it's this. And, and, a lot of the time. interactions on the playground are a little kid coming up to another little kid going, Oh, you look a little bit different than me. And this little kid says, Yeah, I do. I have alopecia. Okay, let's go play. You know, I mean, 

Vonne Solis  18:07  
Exactly.

Deeann Graham  18:09  
That is okay. Because there is, if you don't know, as children, it's not, it's not a bad thing to be okay asking, you know. Just be curious. But to be mean, right? That's another thing. Taunting and saying, You're bald, you're bald. I mean, it's, it's just that that is a normal thing, though. I mean, I got that on the playground. But that's also coming from a place of lack of education, lack of awareness. And so depending on what's going on in the home, what's going on publicly, you can really address a lot of that just by knowing and you know, it's not up to the kid to always have to educate or the parent having to do that. It's like, hey, that's what Google's for. Go home and ask why might children be losing their hair, and you'll find a lot of different responses. So yeah.

Vonne Solis  19:00  
What do you think about the responsibility of teachers who has a child or teen in their class? I don't know. Maybe it changes by the time they're teens. But but certainly starting, I think, I think so much starts in early years. Early childhood years. And like you said as soon as you name something, the the, the threat of it and also I think the allure of the taunting goes away, because it's been called out. And often so much bullying goes on in, in silence on the part of the one who is being bullied. 

Vonne Solis  19:43  
So this is going to be a major assumption I'm making because I was not bullied. But I do know that a silent voice makes us feel vulnerable and in our vulnerability, we can very well become targets for a number of different things. But anyway, what do you think the role of teachers would be and I know your kids are okay. Like when I shouldn't let me rephrase that stop. I know your children do not live with alopecia, correct? I'm correct about that, right? And if they did, what would you want your child to? Like? What would you want to have happen in your child's classroom the moment they go to school? Like, is there some advantage to having a teacher call it out with the kids and say, you know, anybody who's visibly different, and I'm not talking about just living in an in an alopecia world, and I'm talking about also with a parent's permission. I have a reason I'm bringing this up. But where it's visible and where there's permission and the child feels okay with it, just get it out in the open and say, anybody have any questions right at the beginning, would that stop bullying?

Deeann Graham  20:59  
I do believe that voicing it can can promote enough awareness that the kids are comfortable sharing and talking about it. I you know, I like to say always look to the guidance of your child. Ask them questions. Would you like to do this? I always I give I have a number of ways you you can handle this. Right. And 

Vonne Solis  21:22  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  21:23  
 I mean, I even say if your child is so painfully shy that they don't want to talk about it.

Vonne Solis  21:28  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  21:28  
playground, because we want our kids to be able to go to the playground, I know I keep coming back to the playground. But it's so important when they're very young. Have a business card printed out. When somebody asks about it, it says it gives you the resources to look to. It says I have alopecia. I'm uncomfortable talking about it, I'm very shy talking about it. Whatever you want to put on there. You can say my name is Carly or whatever it might be, and and then pass it out. They can go look at those resources. Everybody has their phone. They can sit there and look at it right there and understand it a little bit better. Right? So you've got your painfully shy child, but you also have kids who don't mind talking about it and want to lead something at school and and then you really need the support of the school system. Right? Your teacher going, Hey, this sounds like a great opportunity for children to learn because it's not, like you said, it's it's a visible difference.  But every child feels different at one point in their life in the classroom or anywhere.

Vonne Solis  22:27  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  22:27  
So it helps, I think it helps other children to go, Oh, I feel different in this way. And talking about it is okay. People are can be more accepting than I actually think they are. So, yeah, so there's that. And I always say, you know, there's books that you can bring into the classroom and read. But that really does have to work with the school. Right?

Vonne Solis  22:27  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  22:51  
When you're, the teacher has to be willing to do that. The principal has to be doing that. You oftentimes have a school counselor. There are things like 504 plans in our country that you can get extra support. I mean, I I talk about parents, or I talk to parents saying, you know, wouldn't it be nice, just be nice if we could have a conversation with the school saying, hey, it's important that my child wear a hat for her comfort, his comfort in the classroom. I know you have a no hat policy, but this is the way they feel most comfortable. Right.

Vonne Solis  23:26  
Wait, I have to jump in here. Are you saying that in some schools in a no hat policy, a child living with alopecia who may feel more comfortable, who definitely feels more comfortable wearing a hat, they wouldn't let them?

Deeann Graham  23:39  
Yes, yeah. That that is something that a lot of the time we have to push for. And we have to say, you know, this, we want these processes to be in place so that they can, you have to kind of twist it and say they're going to be able to learn better, right? So make it a school curriculum type thing, the idea of it. But I mean, things like not sitting your child next to event because they're going to be extra gold because they don't have hair on their head. Right? That can be included in a 504 plan. Having a safe space for them to go and being able to use a private bathroom because they're getting bullied in the bathroom. I mean, it's and I'm not saying this is the reality for all children. It is a reality for some and those are the ones that that we're talking about here today.

Vonne Solis  24:25  
Yeah, well, my view is that one person experiencing it one child experiencing is one too many, and it has to stop. And from my point of view, throwing it in in the in the suicide aspect of it. So I recently met a bereaved mom again, this is for audience listeners, members, viewers, I should say that are on the suicide end of it. She was advocating her 17 year old died and a few years ago and so she immediately as many of us do, go into some kind of activism or we'll write books or we'll do something. Start a A memorial fund or organization and change policy, like whatever it's this is like, you know MADD is. I mean, I'm talking about suicide right at the moment, but anybody that loses a child will do this.

Vonne Solis  25:10  
So anyway, one of her wonderful activism projects for a while was going into schools and speaking. And she ran into resistance. I'm in Canada, folks. She ran into resistance. Why? Because it got to the point where a plaque or talking too much about her child, right, they thought would be a trigger. And they're, and basically in influence other teens to commit suicide. And so she had to get out of the school system. 

Vonne Solis  25:45  
So, you know, when you go back to I want to just circle back a little bit, you know, when you're talking about these wonderful things that you're talking about in terms of, you know, not sitting the child near near the event. Giving them access to a private bathroom. You know, letting them wear a hat, or a scarf or anything else they want to on their head. Advocating, you know, and bringing awareness, you know, right in the front of the classroom. In the case of where we're dealing with child and teen suicides, and there has been bullying, from in the school, whether in the school yard, whether in the classroom, I'm going to bring it back, and I am going to put it directly into the responsibility in collaboration with parents in cases where it's necessary with, you know, religious supports with medical support, such as school psychologist, guidance counselors, all of these, you know, the policymakers, the administration. All of these people have a responsibility to ensure that every child, teen student is taken care of. And so in whatever way, so the thing that brings our worlds together Deeann, as I said earlier, at the at the heart of all of this is whatever has caused that child, whatever the age, to feel different, bullied, that that it's become hopeless. 

Vonne Solis  25:45  
And right now, even though it's a bit off topic, I was just reading in the news that there's a sextortion scam going on with teens in very heavily in the United States. And it's already led to the death of two young men, I think, like 16, 17 years old. So the scammer poses, as you know, an alluring young lady. Asks for exploitive pictures. Then blackmails them, for not only everything they own money wise, which is really not very much at their tender years of 16, 17, whatever. And it gets and and the blackmail just keeps coming. The extortion just keeps coming. And it's like, Who are these people? Like, who are these people? And that's jumping down another rabbit hole, but it is still bullying. And I do think there is a responsibility, when I said I'd talk about my daughter a little bit. So for whatever reasons, it doesn't matter the reasons that they feel different, they could just feel different because they're super shy. You know, and they can't like you were saying they can't speak. 

Vonne Solis  28:30  
I love your idea of a card that in your in what you were mentioning, I'm Hi, my name is I have this read about it, like read about it, leave me alone and read about it. But in her case, moving moving schools, which can always be really difficult for young people, and having to settle into one and not being able to easily make friends. You know, the teachers didn't really pick up on the fact that when it was okay pair up for the science project, she had no one to pair up with. And and so she she really did experience a lot of loneliness and aloneness. And, and the teachers also missed putting her in a gifted program where she could be with more like-minded students. And it was so frustrating for me, but back then, and we're talking quite a while ago now because she'd be 39 today. You know, we all missed the signs. Medic medical professionals missed the signs. But there has to be systems in place where everybody cares about each other. And that at the root of it for me is one of the the best ways that we can ensure we're raising our children to be compassionate, empathetic human beings.

Vonne Solis  29:50  
And that differences, I know it seems cliche to say our differences make us stronger. And they do. But it has to be implemented, and that's where I'm gonna go back to this whole clickbait stuff, where people, media jumps on a story and everybody pretends that they care for seven days, or in the case of, you know, Smith, maybe a little longer. But then it goes away. And then you go, Okay, well, okay, have we actually really made any changes? And sadly, in my world. No. Which is one of the reasons I'm doing what I'm doing. And I know, it's one of the reasons you're doing what you're doing. And so it's like the conversation has to start somewhere, and the responsibilities have to fall somewhere to someone. And for me, I think it's family and community. I don't know, what are your thoughts on it?

Deeann Graham  30:48  
I do believe that. Something you mentioned earlier, the word tender age, right? And I think that all our children are at a tender moment in their age and their their maturity. And when we're, you know, whether they read things into what they're seeing, or what they think they're hearing too, is another thing, right? I mean, I, I talk to my 17 year old son, he's almost 18, like next week, and I'm like, you know, could you have actually misinterpreted that look on somebody's face and how they looked at you. So there, there's this tenderness to this, this age, where they're learning what people are thinking and feeling. And it may not be what what that is, but then there's the very abrupt things that are happening. 

Deeann Graham  31:32  
I think, if we talk about what's going on in the school, in this case, I do not know what happened at school, right? I mean, I know what happened at school based on what I heard with this little girl. And it was not unlike things that I experienced myself, you know. I mean, she was, from what I hear, and I can't say this is, you know, everyday stuff, even once is horrible.

Vonne Solis  31:54  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  31:55  
Because her wig was getting ripped off her head, and she was getting smacked in the head in the classroom, right? And so if this was going on, where is the teacher's responsibility in this? Where's the school's responsibility? And, you know, hearing that, the mother said, I need help with this. She went to the school board. Went to the principal said, I need help, we need to talk about this. We need action to be carried out. And as far as we know, nothing was done. And it progressed really quickly. 

Deeann Graham  31:55  
So so when we talk about an event that happens on the Oscars less than two weeks after this young girl kills herself because of this bullying, that makes kind of the uprising of the community even that much more strong. And so yeah, does it start at home? This, this mother did everything she could. She did everything, right, from what I can tell. And and there's no right or wrong about this, but she's like, We shaved her head. Look at this lovely, you know, look at she's owning it, she's. She's doing it, she's feeling confident. And then, you know, less than, I don't know how long the time went from there. But, you know, she did the steps that we all say, hey, this would be probably a really good idea. Hey, raise awareness, let's talk about it. And then she wasn't really able to do that and have that within the home. 

Deeann Graham  33:13  
And then I have no idea what was going on with these other kids who were doing this in the school. I don't even know what kind of home life they could have that that would make this okay, anywhere in the world, right?

Vonne Solis  33:29  
I agree with you. And so it's a fine line. But think of it in terms of this Deeann. And with the greatest of respect to anyone listening. So if your child has a peanut allergy, and this became very, very big, as it should, when my son who's now just turning 30 very soon, was six years old. So before that they had just in I'm in Canada, they had just sort of had a few years where they started to integrate children with disabilities and I'm talking severe disabilities into the classroom. And and so that happened and and, you know, everybody embraced that and they had a carer, you know, with them all day long. And I believe that's the case to this day. I don't know all the ins and outs and I don't know the pros and cons of it, nothing like that. That wasn't my my experience, but that happened. But anyway, I remember the first time we got a notice home when my son was either six or seven saying okay, so no more peanut products to the entire school. We have one child here who has an allergy. It's life threatening, etc. 

Vonne Solis  34:39  
So again, not without any disrespect, respect to to allergies and use only using that as an analogy that is directly taking a health issue. And yeah, a severe one, that the whole entire school, parent community, everything jumps on board. Works with, respects, complies with the policy changes. But if you were to look at any health condition or difference in a child as a severe, life-threatening risk dependent on how it's perceived, treated, and discussed or but just respected. Same thing people. Let's let's, let's look at it that way and every person matters. It's not just about the peanut allergies.

Vonne Solis  35:34  
As as important and as serious as that is, what about the child who has experienced one too many days of bullying or feeling miserable, hopeless and isolated? Because let's face it, our kids don't talk to us, okay? They might tell us some things, but they're not going to tell us everything. So community is huge for them. So to not feel embraced or understood, what about what are we doing to protect that kid that after one too many taunts, okay, or one too many days of feeling they can't cope, they kill themselves. And that's happening, going back to the current sextortion stuff that's going on. That that's what's happening. 

Vonne Solis  35:36  
And in my world, when your child dies by suicide, it can be a build up, for however long of things they can't cope with, that they may or may not confide in one close friend, if anybody. But as a child, as a teen, often these suicides are impulsive. Seriously. I've had too much I'm going home, I'm ending it, it's happened to people I know. A dear friend of mine. It happened to her 14 year old. 

Vonne Solis  37:00  
So I'm not just you know, sort of paying lip service to this. I'm very, very concerned about it. And you and I, obviously Deeann are not going to solve this problem having this talk. But what we can do is make a plea to anybody listening and watching and to other people who are really giving voice to this at a very organic level of people who have experience - direct experience with it. And make sure one your kids are talking to you. And there are ways to do that. And to if you have a kid that's got a bit of a mean streak, if the family home can't address it, teachers, people, administration, counselors, it has to be addressed somehow. And I don't have the answers for it. And I don't know if you have any ideas on that. But even just raising it, you know, we can't make changes unless we know what needs to change. And I've always maintained, we only know what needs to change if we talk to the people who are going through what they're going through. Or in the case of parents being guardians of children going through something. 

Vonne Solis  38:11  
Yes, I love what you say about I wrote it down, follow the guidance of your child. And I love that. So it's everybody has to sort of work together. But they the kids have to feel safe enough to trust that who they're you know, talking to about their deepest, their feelings as best that they can understand them is going to help them. Like help them. And also I think they don't want to worry us parents. I'm not sure why they don't fully talk to us parents. But that could be one reason. They really don't want to worry us and and I think a lot of them don't even understand what they're going through. But I also want to want to point out even as we might be getting closer to, you know, the end of well, well, however long this conversation between us lasts, I just don't want to forget to add in, bullies are of all ages. Mean people are all ages. 

Vonne Solis  39:02  
So it's basically about how do we become kinder and more respectful and understanding of each other in what we live with? You know, I expect you to actually have an answer Deeann.

Deeann Graham  39:16  
No pressure. Yeah, I actually think that there aren't that many horrible, cruel mean people in the world. There's a pretty small percentage and I think that the rest of the people are trying to figure it out. And you know, it's up to us to to guide them right in this situation. And, and there's, I think I'd love love to call my cousin Tara out who is a teacher, and she reached out to me a few months ago and said, Hey, I'd like to know if you have a video that can raise awareness or that I can speak to my classroom about about this. I have two kids with alopecia in our school. And she's a middle school teacher. And I said, you know, I don't actually have anything. And so I made a couple videos, one for younger kids and one for older kids. And I kind of catered it to where they live and how many people in their community were, are living with alopecia. And then I talked about alopecia. And I just featured some photographs and things like that. And it's five minutes or less to each video, and I put music to it, whatever. And I'm like, okay, so if these teachers are looking for support, and they don't want to take away from curriculum throughout the day, they don't want to have, you know, a whole day of having Jeff from the Children's alopecia project come in. And by the way he does do that because he wants to educate. He brings books, he does these things. But again, there's the resistance, right? We can't take away from our school day. And I don't know what the motivation with this particular school was, but I'm like, but Yeah, can you show a five minute video educating people? Not necessarily drawing attention to it. And at the end with my teacher, she said, Oh, my gosh, this student. He, he looked down at his feet. He didn't interact with his classmates. And by the end of watching the video with his peers, he stood up, walked to the front of the classroom and talked about it, you know, and here we go.

Vonne Solis  41:22  
Aww, yeah.

Deeann Graham  41:23  
It makes a difference. Five minutes.

Vonne Solis  41:26  
Yeah. And, and I just want it so I just want to point out here, I could just say to you Deeann, I'm going to cut that out with your with, you know, the emotion. But you know what? People seeing this? This is the effects of just almost bearing the weight of feeling a responsible to the, you know, responsibility to the your community. Me to my community. Don't, don't you kid yourself. I have my breakdown moments too. 

Vonne Solis  41:57  
We're not okay. Like, we're not okay all the way through. There are great, great problems in our respective communities that need to be talked about. And just, you know, just because one person is doing it and has a voice, I know that for me, it was very hard to come forward, and throw my voice in to the the ring, if you will. Throw my hat in the ring and say, well, here I've got something really important to talk about, too. And while a large part of the work I do is in grief advocacy and support and, and, you know, personal growth and healing, these other issues have driven me. I mean, it basically, nearly the death of my child basically nearly destroyed my life. And the recovery process has been incredibly, incredibly difficult, long and painful. And that's a whole other stream of, of this show. But it all started because of difference and misunderstanding. And so I'm grateful that you express your emotion because it makes it very, very real. 

Vonne Solis  43:17  
I think one of the only things that is so you know, sort of powerful and moving people to feel compassion is to witness the emotion. The painful emotion of another person. And, or to be impacted by stories. You know, because as long as other people's lives, and, you know, that may not even be the community that's listening to what we're offering today. But I'm hoping it is because let me tell you, anybody listening, watching. If your life is going great guns, okay, probably the wrong term. If your life is going great, one day, it might not be. And you might find yourself vulnerable. You might find yourself bereaved. You might find yourself living with hair loss or some other type of loss. And it's not fun feeling isolated and alone and that no one understands you. 

Vonne Solis  44:20  
And I would offer even, but I'm not going to talk about this from my end of it very much because I'm very respectful of any type of support in all of the different things that I'm impacted by in my life. Grief, suicide, all that. But even support groups, they're just not enough. Because very few numbers of people maybe go to support groups. I know that's true for bereaved parents. And even if they do they don't necessarily stick with it. And any type of support, in my view, always has to be with the aim to understand, empower and heal. 

Vonne Solis  45:00  
So I just want to throw that out there. And part of the way we do this, if there's no money to go for support, or there's no motivation, or it was too insecure to go to, and be with other people, or the support group that you're looking for, the type of support you're looking for is not meeting your needs. You know, the, the ability to learn through stories is very powerful. 

Vonne Solis  45:28  
And I'm very grateful myself, actually, that there is a platform that we have night right now. It's one of the reasons I actually like to make any of the conversations I have with people who, you know, come on this podcast, and make it on, you know, on video as well, it's a little extra work but worth it, because when people can actually see what we're going through, they can look deep in our eyes and go, yeah, there's some pain there or whatever, it makes it very real. And it also makes it like, well, we're not just not that different from other people. 

Vonne Solis  46:07  
But anyway, I seem to be going a little bit on a tangent down another road. But but you know, it's important to, it's important to show our vulnerabilities Deeann. And we do that in in different ways because the other thing, not understanding what we're living with, whether it's in your community, or for children living with something that other people just don't understand, or they make fun of, but just not the understanding. And we feel we don't, we're not understood by various other communities, medical professionals, they're not doing enough, there isn't enough material, there's not enough support, resources. There are not enough voices in the community. There's not enough places to go where you feel like you belong. And that is absolutely true as a bereaved parent. I have experienced that. It really creates a void. And it makes it it can make us feel like we're living on another planet. 

Vonne Solis  47:04  
But anyway, that's again, another another talk for another day. But I just want you to know, Deeann that our voices count. Your voice counts. And I know the work you're doing. Do you want to just talk a little bit again about some of the work that you're doing in terms of things that you can do to help parents who might be struggling with a child who's facing bullying. In other words, like, how did they talk to the child about it? I mean, you said that, you know, going right back to the beginning, there are ultimate, numerous other ways Will Smith could have, you know, have taken on those steps up to the stage. I absolutely love that. What are some of those things that you know, in your community, parents can do to help people be kind to each other? Help raise awareness? Help their child understand that what they're going through, that may actually be bullying, but they don't know it, how they can help their kid become aware of that?

Deeann Graham  48:11  
I do believe that parents do know their children best. So I don't believe there's one right way to do anything. There's conversations that, you know, you can notice the quietness of your child. You can establish a relationship with your child's teacher. And this is, when I say teachers, this is in those younger years, right? When they only have one teacher. It starts to get a little bit more complicated as they get older. They're diagnosed in middle school or high school that makes it a little bit more challenging. But when they are young, you know, continue to have conversations with your kid, hey, how to go today? And if they're, oh, you're you're pretty quiet today. You know, you don't have to say, oh, did something happen? Sometimes it just comes out that that silence that happens after you ask a question, let that be there. 

Deeann Graham  48:58  
And a lot of the time we do know things are going on and and talk to our children. Whether they're in preschool or kindergarten or sixth grade, there are options to raise awareness. To, to talk about it. And it's going to change as they age, right. I mean, they're not ready to talk today. But next year, they might be at the beginning of school. 

Deeann Graham  49:22  
We happen to have September is Alopecia Awareness Month. And that happens to be around the time school starts, right. And so a lot of awareness and advocacy goes on during that month. And I always say, I have a lot of parents who reach out to me and say, Hey, I need to find it, you know, therapists for my child and I'm like, Oh, okay. You know, is that what about, you know, I'd love to talk about that with you. And if there's some other options that we can explore first and if you still want to do that I can help you establish what you want to look for in a therapist who can help your child right. And so there's there's always the traditional route of going to therapy and getting counseling, but does that person really understand what loss is? How to grieve a loss and how to talk to your peers about things?

Deeann Graham  50:11  
And there's so little I always, I always pictured these really little kids, and not understanding. And even if they talk to me as a coach, I'm like, you know, your child is, is fine. Actually, you as a parent sound like you might need a little bit more support. But first off, I think that kids need somebody who looks like them. Somebody who understands. And that may look like a support gathering, right? In the last couple of years, there haven't been in-person gatherings. And that's been pretty harmful to, you know, the population of the entire world. And within our community, there were camps that had to be called off and in-person support group meetings, which, you know, it's not like parents are meeting and talking about their child's hair loss. It's, hey, let's go to the park and kids are just playing and parents are, you know, gathering at a picnic table and talking while their kids play. And I think that the those gatherings are really important. 

Deeann Graham  51:06  
But like you said, in other groups, you know, Zoom meetings, they, they have their camera off because they don't want to be seen. So these are adults, right? And so I always encourage them to feel free to do that. And just to show up as I am, right?

Vonne Solis  51:20  
Yeah,.

Deeann Graham  51:21  
Show up as I am. And if they're comfortable without their camera, or with their camera, that's, you know, next time, it may change. And I, I have a, I've been meeting with our local kids on Zoom. And they happen to be all girls, and you know, one of the grandmas really wants her child to or her grandchild to take her hat off. And I'm like, it's okay to show up as you are, no matter what you're wearing in the comfort that you have. So there's

Vonne Solis  51:46  
 I love that I love that I'm thinking about it for you know, I mean, I almost see I don't have young children anymore, obviously. But you know, all of these things, and we didn't have zoom and, you know, Skype was just sort of coming into its own back then. But what you're saying is just so important. Everything you're just saying about all these tools like that you've just mentioned. Parents, if you're worried about your child or concerned about your child for any other reason, they don't have to be living with something visible. Everything that Deeann just said, please apply in your life as well in communicating with your child. I love what you said, Deeann. You don't have to say Did something happen today?

Vonne Solis  52:29  
But, you know, listen, I still check in daily pretty much daily with my adult son. Make sure he's handling the pressures, okay. Make sure that he's just okay. And, you know because there's a whole host of of issues that when he was 13, when his sister died, and and to your point we were talking about earlier, you know, about like counseling and school stepping in and stuff like that if they see a problem. It it,but making it rather, that's what I was thinking about. Rather than making it about the child that has the problem, make it more about the kids that don't. And what their roles and responsibilities are to, you know, respect, understand, and how to treat their classmates, just each other. 

Vonne Solis  53:20  
So without necessarily pointing to someone's specific problem, these are the rules. We're going to make sure everybody pairs up. Make sure everybody has a buddy. Make sure if you know, wherever anything is sort of out of balance, that they can rebalance, and maybe giving children the voice in in how to do that. 

Vonne Solis  53:42  
Whether schools are doing this approach or not, I don't know Deeann because I'm going to tell you that suicide, while it may not be up per se amongst children and teens, so youth, youth considering to 25, maybe 26. It is an epidemic in almost every country. And one of the top killers of of our of our kids. And it coming it's coming from somewhere. And yes, we can take responsibility for in the home. And if I could go back and do a lot of things all over again, you bet I would do things all over again differently. And and we need to have more guidance as to what those things are. 

Vonne Solis  54:26  
But in my in my case, in my world, it's confronting the child. Confronting your child. If you're worried, I can't tell you how many parents I've met over the years that said I'm really really really worried about my child and say, Okay, so did you did you talk to them? Did you tell them? Did you ask them outright if they intend to harm or kill themselves? No, I could never do that. I could never do that. And you know what, I get it because I was exactly the same. 

Vonne Solis  54:57  
And so it's it's really it's not even it's not always confrontation, it is communication. And you can bet I took that approach with my son. I wasn't worried about him ever ending his life. It wasn't I didn't have the same worry about him I had about my my daughter. And to be fair to all parents out there who are worried, we often sometimes okay often sometimes sometimes, or often don't know what it is we're worried about. 

Vonne Solis  55:24  
But I would wager to say, if you have a child that is different in any way, you're going to be worried about something. Just think you are. And it's that that has to be addressed. And by the way, I just want to say, I don't know if it's changed, but I'll bring this up for parents who are watching this and are worried or your child is a is a sibling of a sibling who has died for any reason. Talk to the school. Make sure make sure that they put in, you know, practices less expectations for a an agreed upon time for their child to produce schoolwork, homework, things like that. We actually made that request. And again, this is going back 17 years ago, and the principal of my son's school never relayed the information to his two teachers. And we had specifically said he'd just lost his sister in the summer. This was the September. She died July 26. And it wasn't until November when he was noticeably sick, a lot. Lethargic. He could not do his his homework and stuff. We went and had a meeting with the teachers and found out they had never been told by the principal. And I was very upset about that. 

Vonne Solis  56:56  
And the other thing is for him, he he you know we did the whole, do you want to see a therapist? Do you want do you not want to? He did, he didn't. But mostly he didn't want to be made to feel different. So he held all of that grief inside and hid it from everybody. I think only two people knew that his sister had died. And he has continued in that vein ever since. And if he ever watches this, um forgive me for disclosing that about you, my love. But it's true. And disclosing that can definitely help others. Because I'm sure the majority of kids do that. I'm just about sure because there's not enough support for them. There's just not. Yeah. 

Vonne Solis  57:36  
So again, and I'm bringing that up just because I wanted to have we wanted to have this sort of shared discussion about the different problems in our different communities. And I think we've covered quite a bit Deeann. Is there anything I missed from your end that you would really like to end off with?

Deeann Graham  57:58  
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of information out there. And there's, I mean, we're talking about it. I don't know if you know, 20, 40 years ago when I was diagnosed, we weren't talking about it. But where there is more discussion. We're going to be seeing people talking about it more often. And talking about anything, I mean, it doesn't have to be, you know, ad nauseam. It's something that is important when we care about our children. Right? And, and caring about them shows up in different ways. And

Vonne Solis  58:31  
For sure.

Deeann Graham  58:31  
Options, these options for kids to share and for parents to have conversations with teachers, with school staff that it's really important. I always say it's really important that if you have a if you have a child who's wearing a hat and there's an agreement that they can wear the hat in school that the entire staff needs to know about it, right?

Vonne Solis  58:51  
Yes.

Deeann Graham  58:52  
That they're not calling him out. You can't wear that in the lunchroom. Hey, you know, why are you leaving class and wearing a hat? Why are you, I mean, there's so much hierarchy in schools right, too. And so you go, okay, it comes from the top and they should be. There's just a nice cohesive way that things should be. They aren't. But there are possibilities to open up these conversations and to to make it happen. I have a lot of parents who say, Yeah, I don't I didn't know what to say when we were going to talk to the school, but my child wanted to talk about it. So it became very important and the teacher was like, I don't know if we should do this. And then all of a sudden they're like, Okay, I'm so glad we did this, right. And so you have to pave the way sometimes. You may be the first parent dealing with this and the first child having to live with this in a school that doesn't understand, but you are paving the way for children who come after you.

Vonne Solis  59:47  
Yeah. And it's it's such an important point. And, you know, I'm just going to throw into the mix here that you know, these these issues are not going to go away. Alopecia is not going away. Suicide is not going away. So we're dealing with it. The issue is in cases of, of, you know, children and youth suicides, is how many more do we have to go through? I haven't seen a lot of changes. 

Vonne Solis  1:00:14  
I got out of support group support groups years ago I wish I hadn't. But one of the reasons I did was one, there wasn't enough that in fact, there isn't any where I live. And I'm on Vancouver Island, and the one that the one that there is, it's about maybe 40 miles from me. And um, again, hats off to anybody who's working in support. But for me, the focus has to be on bringing in ways to try and recover and heal and not just repeat our stories over and over and over again. So that can be a bit of a problem when you're looking for support. But the other thing, and I'm probably going to forget it, but I did have something I wanted to say and I'm I apologize. I it may come back to me. But it was sort of in the vein that these problems. Oh, yeah, I know what it was. 

Vonne Solis  1:01:02  
One thing I started to learn really recently, again this is for the group in suicide, but prevention is - they're starting to be some really organic community groups pop up in Canada. And I've now come across the second one. And you know, what, it was a mom, that there's, there's actually an advocacy group too. It's not a support group, but it's more an advocacy group. But it's either one parent or group of parents that say, we've had enough, we're not getting the type of support, the type of resources we need in the more provincial, or maybe there's the municipal organizations. And I really, really, really can't stand dial 10 or 11 digits if you're in trouble. Which I've been, Oh, we're there, we're trying to get a 988 number in Canada in the States is getting a 988 number to call. But it's not just dial the number, whether it's 10, 11, or three digits. It's the type of support that's on the other end. 

Vonne Solis  1:02:02  
And, and part of the problem I've read about is for people reaching out when they're in trouble for any reason, and again, our worlds Deeann, you know, you might have have suicides from people who lived with hair loss at at an older age, because they just can't take the bullying or whatever the differences that piled on. Insecurities that impact every other area of your life. I'm not making wild assumptions here. I'm just wanting to include this as a possibility. But for the people that are at suicide risk, and really need help you, a lot of them don't reach out. I've read this, because they're afraid they're going to be arrested or hospitalized. And that might just not be what they need. And so some organic groups are going up, which means that they are suicide support groups, pre and post-vention.

Vonne Solis  1:02:58  
 I love the word post-vention. Never heard of it before, which means after care. After the call, follow up. How are you? But they seem to only be directed at support for a local area. Not even region, just very local. But I want to be talking to some of those people because I want to see how'd you do it? What did you have to do because hearing about this maybe in part, this is something that we have to do. Is establish things more by community, and like local community. And trust me, I would be doing a physical support group if I could, but I just can't. And so this is my effort to provide support a little bit more outside local, regional area. 

Vonne Solis  1:03:47  
Every voice counts. I'm going to I'm going to end on my part, every voice counts, and we can't have enough of them and be talking too much. You know? In other words, the more we talk, the more we bring people in, in, I believe you have a podcast to right? And, and you are doing advocacy and awareness. So every time we do something, and people listen and hear what we have to say and the people that we invite on our shows have to say, this can be extremely and no doubt is very impacting. And that's one way that change happens. Right? But we need it at all we need it at all levels. And you know, so I for my part, I'm going to end this off and and oh, but I will ask so yeah, so is there anything else that Deeann that you want to talk about right now?

Deeann Graham  1:04:41  
I, I don't know that I want to talk about it, but I would love people to come on over to my own website and see the resources that I have available.

Vonne Solis  1:04:49  
Yes.

Deeann Graham  1:04:49  
So those videos that I made for my cousin that I've put up on YouTube to use publicly. You can share them. You can take them into your own school. 

Vonne Solis  1:04:57  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  1:04:58  
Of course there's there's the option to have me kind of make a custom one for you and your child should that work, but you know, use them. And I don't even - if the child doesn't feel comfortable sharing that video with the with the classroom, don't.

Vonne Solis  1:05:02  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  1:05:15  
Seeing and watching it themselves can help them feel a little bit more normal, you know. Like in the or the people that they're not alone, right. And I think that that's really important. And you know, my book was kind of made to do that too.

Vonne Solis  1:05:29  
Yeah.

Deeann Graham  1:05:29  
Story, stories. We talked about stories, right? That

Vonne Solis  1:05:31  
Yes

Deeann Graham  1:05:32  
We're not alone. This is happening to a lot of people. 

Vonne Solis  1:05:35  
Yes.

Deeann Graham  1:05:35  
People around the world understand. And that goes for parents, too. So those are the resources there that I have. And I have a lot of free resources on there for

Vonne Solis  1:05:44  
Yeah, I'll for sure be putting your link to your website and anything else from our previous episode there again. I also wanted to say one other thing. I thought about this before and a comment I read in the news, going back full circle to the Oscars, was that nobody would dared have made a joke about someone who had hair loss because they had cancer?

Deeann Graham  1:06:11  
 Right? 

Vonne Solis  1:06:12  
Or an obvious illness? And so why was this any different? And while we don't necessarily have to start another conversation about that, just think about that people because it's the same thing as bullying in school. It's the same thing about, you know, making jokes. It's the same thing about pointing fingers. It's the same thing about making judgments about anybody for any reason. You don't know what's going on in another person's life. And it's been my experience that fear, fear, and really which is at the root of so much, causes anger, and anger can cause meanness. And there's a reason that everybody is mean, straight on up from childhood. 

Vonne Solis  1:06:56  
And if we could figure out and find out and resolve all of those issues that are making people mean and angry and afraid, right? It'd be a different world that's for sure. Right?

Vonne Solis  1:07:11  
Anyway, Deeann, it's been amazing talking to you. And I know, this is my first sort of public conversation I've had talking about what we've been talking about and keeping it really, mostly on the personal level and a little bit, you know, branching out from that. And I really, really want to thank you for sharing the platform with me to do this. It's been awesome.

Deeann Graham  1:07:37  
Yeah.

Vonne Solis  1:07:37  
Maybe maybe we'll have to do it again. We'll find another issue to talk about, right?

Deeann Graham  1:07:42  
Absolutely.

Vonne Solis  1:07:43  
I love this.

Deeann Graham  1:07:44  
I appreciate you having me on again, I really do and talking about something that's, that's so close to my heart. And, you know, yeah, 48 million other people in the world.

Vonne Solis  1:07:55  
Exactly. So anyway, again, I'm going to be putting a link to both of our resources in the description. So anybody that needs help, in any way that either Deeann or I can help you, terrific. But I know we both have lots and lots of other resources on our websites to point people to other resources. I do it through my blog. I have a YouTube channel. We both have courses and so on. So we're offering as much as as we can offer as two women trying to make the planet a better place. 

Vonne Solis  1:08:28  
Anyway, thanks, everybody. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Thanks to you, Deeann and we'll talk soon.

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