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Subscribe to the podcast! Share your favourite episodes! Connect with Vonne on LinkedIn and Facebook.
Vonne Solis 0:00
Welcome to another episode of Grief Talk. Everything you want to know about grief and more. I'm your host, Vonne Solis. As an author, mentor and bereaved mom since 2005, through guest interviews and coaching, here's where you'll always get great content that is inspiring and practical to help you heal after loss.
Today's guest is Stephen Panus. Now as an author, and drawing on his thirty year career as a sports marketing executive, publicist, sports agent, artist, attorney, sports marketing executive and motivational speaker representing elite athletes and others, the death of his son Jake, who at age 16, was killed as a passenger in a reckless car crash, led Stephen's life to implode. Seeking to both survive and move forward, he wrote his book Walk On to confront his daily agony, inspire a renewed and resilient faith in living and regain his purpose. Walk On is intended to help anyone overcome struggle, and find the answers within to help you lead a life filled with purpose and meaning.
Stephen, welcome to my show. I am thrilled that you are here with
me.
So huge thank you for being in this space with me
and being willing to talk about your story.
Stephen Panus 1:18
Thanks for having me Vonne. And I'm sorry to share this pathway.
Vonne Solis 1:22
Yes, me too. But on the flip side, I am really happy for any voice that is out there in the grief space because it's so important for the many that don't feel they have a voice or can speak or share their story for a host of reasons. It's people like you. And people like me and the probably thousands of others working in this space that you know, have very similar things that we feel.
I've been in this so long. I know we all feel and go through the same emotions, no matter how our child has died. And I want to start off, I have wished you or express my condolences to you privately, but I will do it publicly here. I really, really am very, very sad for you that you had to lose your beautiful boy, Jake. And we will hear some about your story and how that has impacted you. I also want to acknowledge our children with the candle I always have going when I have bereaved parents on this podcast, because I do believe our children are with us. So Jake, Janaya, that's for you. And so let's get right to it Stephen.
I do want to just start off and put it in context that you came from a 30 year, probably plus background, in your sports marketing. Like really high powered stuff. And I don't know if it was like athlete centric, but I got the feeling that kind of was. And so I found that really, really super interesting when I first connected with you. And by the way audience, I did reach out to Stephen myself on LinkedIn, and he graciously accepted my connection. And I right away, invited you to come on my show, and you graciously accepted. And I was a little intimidated, because of the sports thing. And I thought you know what? This is gonna be really super interesting. The vulnerability coming from that kind of background. And I'm sure you have a lot that you can address about that as well as we get going here. But let's start first with how your word world imploded when you lost, Jake. And this was in 2020, summer, right? And just share what you'd like to share with the audience about that.
Stephen Panus 3:35
Yeah. So it happened on August 9 2020. Jake, went away on a weekend trip with his girlfriend in her family to Block Island. Which is an island just off Rhode Island. About two hours from our home here in Connecticut. And um, he'd only been dating her about six weeks or so and supposed to be just a quiet family weekend. Beach time. Walk to town. Ice cream, etc. And he, so he left on a Friday and that Sunday morning, we got a phone call that there had been an accident. Jake was injured. And there was no other details. And so we my wife, Jake's little brother Liam was 11 at the time and myself, quickly packed a bag of overnights and we hopped in the car and started speeding towards Rhode Island. About 12 minutes into the drive when we received a phone call. The most unwanted phone call ever from a doctor who introduced himself. Paused. And then said I'm sorry. I just pronounced your son dead.
Vonne Solis 4:40
In a phone call? Because that's the way I found out my daughter died too. In a phone call. Racing on the highway to her home. Ughhh. Cause I'm going to ask you, just has that moment stuck with you? And does it haunt you? Or
Stephen Panus 4:54
Yeah.
Vonne Solis 4:55
Yeah me too. Yeah me too.
Stephen Panus 4:57
There's there's just certain elements of it that you I doubt you'll ever shake. They're just like, ingrained in you. Marked on you. And I doubt will erase.
Vonne Solis 5:08
Yep. So just as a, if it's a small comfort because it is to me. I now know okay, I'm not the only one that found out my daughter basically had died in a phone call. And you're trapped in this car. Right? Fortunately, I wasn't driving. Were you driving?
Stephen Panus 5:28
I was driving, and I was just going fast. And I was bouncing between lanes.
Vonne Solis 5:32
Holy Jesus.
Stephen Panus 5:34
Yeah. Everything stopped. And I just I just, I recall slow attempting to get the car over to the right lane as fast as I could to get off the highway.
Vonne Solis 5:44
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephen Panus 5:47
We pulled off and literally, I just pulled right off the exit. And there was a bank. It was a Sunday and there was a bank across the street from the traffic light. And I just went right through the light and pulled into an empty bank parking lot. And we just got out. We ran around the car in circles, and we just fell together as one blob of kind of broken humanity.
Vonne Solis 6:08
Yeah, I'm so I'm so glad you're sharing that because this is something I've sort of kept quiet. And I've it destroyed me. That was the end of my life as I knew it. In the car. In that in those in that second. In those last words, which for me was, she's gone. Ahhh! I even got chills just saying that now. And so um we don't have to stay on that. But I'm just saying I'm acknowledging that as a piece of the trauma that I don't know how you could ever, anyone could ever sort of overcome. And the reason I'm saying that, because it's going to play into our talk today. You know, resilience. Staying motivated. But there are some things, don't you think that Stephen that kind of like, I'm not sure we can ever really overcome that? You know, like, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? I don't know.
I think you use the word trauma. And I think that's very important, because that's exactly what happens to it is, for me, everything went black. I felt nothing. I didn't even feel part of this world anymore.
Yes. Yes. That was the moment. That was the moment. And I talk a lot about PTSD, because I actually got diagnosed with it 10 years, like nine and a half years later. I suspected I had it, but we didn't talk about it. And so I started researching it for my first book, which took five years to write, by the way. And I got very interested in it. And I had to get all my information from Veterans Affairs in the States and I live in Canada. That tells you how little and we still don't have anything really about PTSD in grief. Like trauma related to grief and or child loss.
Stephen Panus 7:56
Oh, it's a it's a big deal. For sure. I mean, I know that my brain is not the same brain as it was before August 9, 2020. It's damaged. It's I cannot re remember things the way I used to be able to recall things. Just to you know, I think you can relate to that. You're just not you're not the same person, obviously. But the your body and your brain and how you operate are completely different. And it's, and it's not easy with the damaged brain.
Vonne Solis 8:30
Yeah, exactly. And while it takes a doctor, obviously, to diagnose the trauma and the PTSD, even if you don't have PTSD, the trauma is there. And it does change the brain. I just want to let you know from all the research I've done. And the National Institute for the center of behavioral medicine in the States, the NICABM? They do specialize in PTSD and trauma. And I was so happy that like a week ago, and as we're recording this, this is in February, but they announced their first ever training for therapists in trauma related to grief. And I was just Yes! And I'm a layperson, but they actually work with, you know, licensed therapists.
So while we're not going to, you know, linger on that today, my part in the in the trauma piece is just have people become aware that this may have impacted you. And if it has impacted you and further if you've developed a disorder from it, literally your brain does not work the same way. And if you don't understand that right from the beginning, you know, it really impacts decisions you make. Your changing behaviours and and questioning yourself. And it can cause a lot of relationship breakdowns. It can, people can lose jobs, you know. Cause money problems. Like there are a host of things that can happen when we have medical issues that have not been diagnosed. So I'm just giving a shout out to that.
Stephen Panus 10:05
Yes.
Vonne Solis 10:06
So you're in the parking lot. God. And I'm thinking now do you have a decision? Well, you know you have to get driving again. Right? But you also know you're driving towards, right? Your basic future that's now obliterated.
Stephen Panus 10:26
We didn't know what to do in the moment. And I, we, the doctor was still on the phone. And my wife talked to him. I don't recall hearing anything that was said. We concluded that the best thing for us to do in that moment was to go home. And we were 12 minutes away. We returned home, and I call some good friends. I called my mom first. And then we called friends and told them and so people just started coming over. And then I got on the phone with Rhode Island, when I felt like I had somewhat of coherency to deal with it and just learned that there was going to be a process for getting my son's body home. That there was no, as much as we wanted to be there with him there was no, there was no reason and we wouldn't have got to see him right away. That because it was, there was an accident.
Vonne Solis 11:26
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 11:26
And it was going to be a whole police process. The accident was that he was in, he was in a vehicle that was operated by his girlfriend who was a year older. And with friends in the car, they had all been drinking. The they were at the beach. They went back to the house, where the girlfriend's mom was and the girlfriend's mom sadly, passed the keys to her daughter, and put all the kids into the car. And she went to the beach and sent them on their way. And his girlfriend became distracted, I guess? And she was going a little bit over the limit. She went off the road. And she hit a telephone pole and Jake died.
Vonne Solis 12:15
Yeah. Can I just ask, were there any other casualties from that accident or just Jake?
Stephen Panus 12:20
Just Jake. One other was injured and he was helicoptered off the island. But everyone, he was the only one injured and yeah he survived. And he's in college now.
Vonne Solis 12:31
Parent to parent, that's got to cause some conflicting feelings. Everything you just said, right? Does it? Or maybe it didn't. Maybe you are immediately like, forgiving. Like it, this was an accident. Do you want to speak to that at all?
Stephen Panus 12:49
Well, you know, I've come to a place where I've found forgiveness for everybody involved. And so I'll just, I like to stay there. We got sucked into a legal process where we had no voice. It was sort of gotten by the state attorney general's office and they involved us more than we initially wanted to be involved. And we end up getting dragged in. And when you get dragged in like that, it's a it's a terrible roller coaster ride
Vonne Solis 13:14
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 13:15
that no bereaved parent needs to be on. And so it was a long year and a half of additional pain and suffering and grief and trauma.
Vonne Solis 13:24
I'm glad you're bringing that up, actually, in a way because I discovered, I spent the first year, my husband and I, in a grief support group for bereaved parents. And it was really interesting because I, I had had at that point a 23 year career in I mean, practice in metaphysics and a spiritual practice. Okay? So I always, I was already, there's more. There's an afterlife. There's ongoing consciousness. My girl's okay. But but then, you know, there was still the physical part of that.
But I was shocked at how many people, the first thing they wanted to do was get into a legal battle if it had been an accident. Or, and I'm not saying for you, I'm just saying. They want to be, but then it took me a few years, and then I kind of understood that in survival mode and as part of the way even of dealing with trauma. Aside from the actual real, like, like legal things that have to happen. It can be an energy release sometimes for parents on their own, to initiate all kinds of conflict. Not least, you know, lawsuits and things like that. And that's why, but the same energy, this is my opinion, but the same energy can start an NGO, for example. Or a scholarship fund or anything like that. It's that grrrr energy and throw it into. So it's really unfortunate for you and your wife that you got sucked into that when you really rather would have not have got sucked into that. Because on the flip side, when it is you know, combative and conflicting and all off this, as you said, it's just, it is painful, right? I wasn't involved in that. We were suicide. We got left alone. So it's like we were invisible. So that even hurt because it was like, Does no one care? Does no one care? And we lost everybody. All our friends. It was really weird. But
Stephen Panus 15:19
Yeah
Vonne Solis 15:20
you know not again to dwell on that necessarily. But it it i's just so interesting you're talking about that because it's like you already knew, I don't want this. I don't want this. I don't want to be involved in this right?
Stephen Panus 15:34
Yeah. My wife's take on it was that we weren't there. Involved. So why should we be involved in this aspect of it? And the hardest part Vonne is that a child died and the state of Rhode Island treated it like there had been a theft of a pack of bubble gum.
Vonne Solis 15:54
Really?
Stephen Panus 15:55
And I mean, that in the sense that there wasn't a single hearing held in this matter at all and a child died. There wasn't a trial. There wasn't a hearing. There wasn't let alone a hearing. And so that was the frustrating part was that it just felt like there was no accountability. And we weren't looking for extreme punishment, anything like that. But I do believe in accountability. And that lessons need to be learned. And that if we that's why we discipline our children, right? So that they learn their lesson and they don't repeat the mistake. But it was, um, it was an eye opening, and certainly frustrating process to watch unfold.
Vonne Solis 16:40
Yeah. Here's a question. Would you like to see a law, a social host law, extended to vehicles and a situation where a parent would give keys to a minor driving?
Stephen Panus 16:53
100%? I mean, that's our job as parents right? And we entrusted the care of our child to this mother. Um.
Vonne Solis 17:03
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 17:03
I think. And honestly, that's what burns my wife the most is that my wife was so vigilant and had such a healthy relationship with Jake. And she was so involved in his life. And not a helicopter mom. But just had a really beautiful relationship with her son and was very involved in his life. And for her to lose Jake under these circumstances was incredibly painful because it it felt and the facts played out that the mother wasn't watching the children.
Vonne Solis 17:36
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 17:37
She should have been. Wasn't watching them. Like kids come to our house, we treat them like they're our kids. And it didn't seem like that was reciprocated. And so for a mother, that's a hard pill to swallow. And as a father, it was too, but my wife really struggled with that. And I understand why.
Vonne Solis 17:53
I totally, totally understand that that would be very difficult, very difficult. So you're impacted. Your your world has imploded. You need to take some time. But as you say, you and what a wonderful career you had, obviously. And so you were a motivator as part of your career in the past, right? And motivating others to well, to win? What were you motivating them towards?
Stephen Panus 18:24
While I was a motivator as a father, for sure. I was a sports agent.
Vonne Solis 18:28
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 18:28
A sports attorney and sports marketing exec. I guess you could say I was motivating my clientele certainly. I mean, I always like to inspire people to be the best that they can be. And I did that with my, with my boys as well.
Vonne Solis 18:39
Yeah, but so your personal disposition? See, I believe that our disposition. Who we really are. Our major, like our character traits. One could call them values, but also I believe, what we're born into, and how we look at life, because of that, and I actually learned from my daughter's passing, I was a glass half-full person. So that helped in my grief. Immediately, immediately look, to what can I do, to not let this ruin me especially right? Who we are intrinsically, I think really shapes the way we, you know, go through our grief. Which I believe always, you know, will be with us in various ways, no matter how long we're in it. Do you believe that?
Stephen Panus 19:28
I do. I think you hit the nail on the head. And I was fortunate. I was born to two parents that instilled a lot of optimism. Encouraged it. Inspired it.
Vonne Solis 19:38
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 19:39
And so I grew up as an optimist. That's just my DNA and who I am and who I was raised to be by my mother and father. And that spirit and that resilience certainly helps you get through a lot of things in life. Because life's not easy for anybody right? There's ups and downs, tribulations.
Vonne Solis 19:57
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 19:57
But this obviously is a whole level of adversity in another spectrum.
Vonne Solis 20:03
Exactly, exactly.
Stephen Panus 20:05
I don't know. If I wa, I fear if I wasn't an optimist I don't know if I'd be sitting here talking to you right now,
Vonne Solis 20:11
Listen. Right back at ya. And I have said that so many times. And um those early days, weeks, months, and then the first few years, and then you know, and then we change. And I have not had a guest on my show yet, who's been bereaved longer than me. So I don't have anyone to say, Okay, what's it like at 25 years? And I don't actually think I need to ask that question. But in the beginning, I needed to ask that in the first many years. I needed, and I wanted to know, where are you? What inspired you? I'm so fascinated, I said to you just before we started recording. I'm so you know, fascinated by resilience and inspiration. So let's turn to that for a minute. Regardless of your background, but I love your background. Regardless, that's all gone. Who cares? You know, Jake's gone. None of that matters anymore. So what does matter? And when did you decide to start writing Walk On?
So what mattered after that was my wife and my son, Liam. That was it.
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 21:27
I needed to make sure that they got through this. And that they, that we got through this collectively, but also individually, and we certainly had some very tough times the first two years.
Vonne Solis 21:40
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 21:40
It was brutal.
Vonne Solis 21:41
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 21:42
To be completely honest. And like I said, I'm three and a half years in now. We've been doing a lot better. My wife is doing better, but still struggles mightily with the concept that the thought that Jake's forever gone. I do. It's, you know, it's, I mean this is a life sentence. You carry this until your final breath.
Vonne Solis 22:04
Yes, yes, absolutely. So I just want to speak quickly to the forever gone. That's a really, really, really, really, really hard one. And while I haven't met, really interacted really, personally, or professionally with anyone bereaved longer than me. I don't know why, but I haven't. I have, you know, engaged with people who are, you know, maybe around 15 years in or so. And so, we share the same thing. So it kind of what happens so with everyone, I've spoken with. It kind of like, you just sort of find a way to integrate it into your life. I had to find a way to instead compartmentalize things which therapy sort of was teaching? No, I integrated it. And I learned to just really, really honour and respect this is part of my life. This is who I am. But because society and culturally we're so silenced, as bereaved parents, largely? Because nobody wants to hear about our kid dying. And that's the truth. You know, unless it's a really media sensation thing. And when all of that all everything, you know, sort of fades away, we're still years later left with that same experience.
And if you're traumatized and haven't dealt with it? They've just discovered that trauma experiences are not memories. It's a re-enactment in your brain, kind of I'm paraphrasing of what's going on. But they just released a study where they've realize that anything traumatic that we have experienced, you can't go back and formulate it as a regular memory. They're not those they're not stored in the same part of the brain. And so what's re, and they don't know yet how to treat that as as trauma therapists. So it's really interesting, because you've got this thing sitting there, and you and and as long as you're alive and as unless they find a way to treat it. You know, there are key moments related to our loss. And so that realization have gone forever. You know, I played with that for a few few years on and off. But it did, it did as I kind of I think it took 10 years. And I, here's the interesting thing. I had read books at the time that said 10 years was a really, something happens. And I thought what? How can it? How can it? So I'm not saying it's 10 years. Something's gonna happen. But for me, it was that piece where I really realized like, this is it Vonne. Like this is really, this is your life. Now some people may accept it and get you know, get get to this acceptance piece much much faster. And and that I honour and respect and applaud that. Honest to God, this is not, you know, a race between any, any any one of us and I always say, especially between us and our former selves. And so.
Stephen Panus 23:41
It's an individual journey right?
Vonne Solis 25:15
Exactly.
Stephen Panus 25:16
My wife and I cope completely differently. Men and women grieve differently. We share the same tragedy.
Vonne Solis 25:22
Exacty.
Stephen Panus 25:23
But we're on, we're on two different train tracks. And every once in a while we cross over. But
Vonne Solis 25:27
Yeah, exactly
Stephen Panus 25:29
it's completely different ways in which we
Vonne Solis 25:32
yeah
Stephen Panus 25:33
handle cope.
Vonne Solis 25:34
And it really changes. It really, really changes over time. And that's what's so interesting. And that's why I wish there were more voices out there, two and three decades in because what did you do? But you know, maybe it's coming from, you know, a time where people really bought into the silence. I'm not sure. Anyway, that's going down another path. So when did you decide to start your book, Walk On?
Stephen Panus 26:02
Well, it was in year two. I first going to backtrack and just say that I needed, men typically in grieving need action. So we had formed two scholarships. One literally in the days following Jake's loss. We were getting so many flowers. We're like, we don't need any flowers. What would Jake want? And Jake's way to live was to lift people up and to spread joy. He was a fun loving, magnetic, authentic personality.
Vonne Solis 26:29
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 26:29
And he had gone on a church mission trip a year prior, where our church goes to Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota in a particular area of the reservation called Red Shirt table. It's one of the poorest areas on the reservation.
Vonne Solis 26:43
Wow.
Stephen Panus 26:43
And work with the young children there and Jake really bonded with the kids there. He read to them. Taught them how to read. Taught them life skills. Just made an impression on them and came home. They made an impression on him. And he came home and from that experience, and was keenly aware of the inequalities that he witnessed. And the differences in how he lived compared to how those children lived and he wanted to make a difference. So we formed a scholarship that would help children from Red Shirt table who go to Red Cloud Indian school, go there.
We awarded three scholarships to three young Lakota girls that are in college. We're happy about that. And then six months later, we formed another scholarship in partnership with the University of South Carolina and the athletic department.
Vonne Solis 27:28
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 27:28
That's where Jake wanted to go to college. That's where I went. And he wanted to follow in my footsteps. And I felt as his father I felt a responsibility to make sure he got there. So we formed a scholarship there called the Jake Panus Walk On scholarship. Where a Walk On football player who earns, represents the qualities of Jake. Which is caring about his community. Being a good athlete. Having grit and determination. And a Walk On athlete football player each year is awarded a scholarship as selected by the coach, Shane Beamer. And then they are the recipient of the Jake Panus Walk On scholarship. Likewise, the first scholarship initiatally was named The Jake Panus Memorial Scholarship. It's been renamed the Jake Panus Walk On scholarship. Two separate funds. And we've given three scholarships at South Carolina and three at Red Cloud Indian School.
Vonne Solis 28:21
Wow. So there's five scholarships now in Jake's name?
Stephen Panus 28:24
Six.
Vonne Solis 28:25
Oh six. Wow. Wow. Wow. I love it. So are they are they all called the Jake Panus Walk on?
Stephen Panus 28:32
Yeah. So they are two scholarship funds. Both called Jake Panus Walk On scholarship. Walk On has a special meaning because, and I, we didn't realize this at the time. But in Native American lore, the term Walk On just means moving on to the next step in your journey. It's not a linear pathway. We're energy, we never die. So to tie that in with the Walk On football player concept, where a student athlete who doesn't get a scholarship and has to earn their way to get one or just remains a Walk On football player, you know? Part of the team but paying their own freight.
Vonne Solis 29:08
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 29:09
Connecting those two was was very impactful. And it's been beautiful. So that getting those scholarships launched was my first step in kind of doing something about what happened to my son in a way to honour him and honour his legacy. Then in 2021, in September, I went to the University of South Carolina to award the first scholarship. And in doing that, and when I announced the scholarship winner in front of the whole football team and the coaching staff, and saw the young man come forward, and I just saw the joy in his face. And I saw Jake in his face. And that was the first time that I felt like a pivot occurred. Where I felt I can do something with with this tragedy, and community. Help others. And I knew the scholarships was the first step and I saw that. And I still was struggling, admittedly. You know, it's grief is a dark place and it's, it's not linear.
Vonne Solis 29:08
Right.
Stephen Panus 30:04
You go up and down. There's phases to it. One day, you may think, oh my god, I'm doing so much better. But, Jake, because of who Jake was, and he was such an immense personality, and he left a large footprint. He was everywhere in our town we lived. He lived in every time zone in the United States by the time he was age five. And he had friends all over the country and he had footprints all over. And just within our town, and within our county, he knew kids from other schools. He played sports, He was just, he was an outgoing extrovert with a large personality. The type of kid that when he walked into the room, he lit it up. He had blond curly hair, so he was visually stunning. And his energy was large.
And so I had a tradition with my boys that I started with Jake, obviously being the firstborn. When he was about five, I started writing messages to him in the mornings. And I would post them on little, I write them on little sticky notes, post it notes, and I would put them on his lunch bag or on the kitchen island. And there were messages of inspiration. And they were about values and traits and attributes that were positive. And it carried on with Liam when he became old enough to read as well. And the goal was to impart wisdom and inspiration into the developing heart, mind and soul. And in doing so, it just was something that I really enjoyed. I would talk to the boys about some of the messages. They'd have questions. And I was just trying to get them to find, recognize this is your pathway if you want to live a life of purpose and meaning, right? You're going to be good. You're going to be kind. You're going to serve your community and give back. All these attributes, like I said.
But when Jake died, your whole belief system gets blown to smithereens. You don't believe in anything anymore. You question everything. And I had to look inward deeply to figure out, well, I knew I was a different person, for sure. I could feel it. I didn't, I could, you know, you look. I'm the same person on the outside. But inside, I was gutted. I was a shell of myself. And I knew that I needed like I owed it to Liam to pick myself up. Show him that there was a pathway forward.
Vonne Solis 32:21
Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Take a minute. It's okay.
Stephen Panus 32:28
Yeah. What I wrote my boys.
Vonne Solis 32:30
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 32:31
What I modelled for them. And did I believe it anymore? So I started, first, I wrote a letter to Jake. That's what started the writing. And then I thought about the all these post it notes. And I started reviewing them because my wife kept them. And my mom had actually typed up a lot of them cause she's cute like that. And I just started reading them and I had to make sense of them in the context of my own grief now but also, did they, were they truthful? Did I set him on the right path? Did did you know, you just question everything. And so as I started to revisit them and apply them to grief, I started to write about them. And then I started to write Jake's story. And it's almost like I was called to do it. It just flowed from there. And then I, you know, I wrote the book, and I just wrote it for myself. And for survival initially. And then, like I said, to make sure that I was going to be able to show Liam that no, no matter what has happened to us, we hold our future in our hands.
Vonne Solis 33:36
I believe that. I believe that.
Stephen Panus 33:38
I dedicated the book to Liam and um.
Vonne Solis 33:42
What a gift. Stephen. What a gift. Like, really seriously, what a gift. For Liam. For Jake, who I am sure is with you all the time. And you know, will see all this. So something I just want to say. You believe in, you believe in the afterlife? Do you believe that we never really die?
Stephen Panus 34:05
I do.
Vonne Solis 34:05
Yeah me too. Me too. So we get that out of the way. So that's why because some people don't. But that's that's why the kids are the kids are with us. And I've had so many experiences of my daughter visiting. And funny story, right? I'll make this really quick. But just to give you hope, and other people hope if if, have you had visits from Jake that you can identify as visits? Right. Right. So my daughter was with me all the time in the beginning. Okay? So she would have been 41 on February 4th. And admittedly the visits are not as frequent okay? Maybe once or twice a year or when I ask her Hey, hon, pop in? So of course I wanted a little visit, but I've let the need of that go in recent years, okay? Understandably. And it's kind of like, Mom, you know, I'm around. Do I have to keep popping in? That's how I interpret it. So a few years ago, I started to just let it go a little bit unless I really need her.
And so I was kind of like on her birthday, you know what? It'd be really nice if you popped in but you don't have to. So long story short. Went through the day. This year didn't do anything really special for it, because that was each year it just is what it is. And so she started playing a little bit with elec electricity in the evening. And it was enough that it was like, Kay, this hasn't happened before. So I always take things if it's happening, and it really hasn't happened before? Okay, maybe. And I went, Okay, and maybe three, four or five things happened. And I'm like, Okay, I'm going to take that as a visit from her.
I get ready for bed and I kind of went ehh, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe that wasn't. But you know what? I'll, I'll think it was. And that makes me feel a little bit better, right? And so, I get out of the bathroom. And I pick up my phone and I see that there's a phone call from my husband's phone. And I said to him, did you call me? And he goes, No. He goes the strangest thing. My phone was just lying on the bed. And it phoned your phone. And I'm like, what? And so, you know, he went to pick up my phone. Hello? And it's his phone. You know, he can hear it echoing. And so one, a non-believer would look for just about anything to say it was something else. But it was like a nod and you really didn't believe me? Okay, here's a phone call. And so it's so much it can become really fun when, when that need and in pain obviously, and many years, I needed her visits in my pain kust to make sure she's okay. So just for me personally, that sealed the deal for me. And I went, Okay, I'm going to start having fun with this.
So how I believe things you know, for me is that she's not around me all the time because she needs to do other things. They need to do other things wherever they are in energy form. But she will come and let me know. I had many, many dream, astral visits with her that she is still with me. But as I've needed that less, it's still reassuring and comforting. Now, it's just going to be a nod and a wink. And you know, Hey, Mom, I'm still here kind of thing. So they never, I think the point I'm making is they never really leave us. And how often that connection is, is going to be between us and our children right? And it's just so cool. So you've had visits as well hey?
Stephen Panus 37:43
Definitely and that's beautiful that story. Yeah, I believe like there's a part of me that died and went with Jake. And there's a part of Jake that's still is within me. And I'm with him wherever I go. So that's kind of how I look at how things happen. And I think that's maybe that it's those that have experienced, you know, death in this way that you're granted this experience to see that the next realm? Is the veil is very thin.
Vonne Solis 38:18
I love what you just said, though. And I'm thinking so I'm going to put this out there. I've never said this before. So you just said, you know, Jake's DNA is in you and your DNA is in Jake. All true. And wouldn't it be cool if just because of that, that's kind of like a line to us as parents that it never really will go away. Because no matter even if they were to come back in physical form in another incarnation as someone else? That link is still so strong, and they're in that energy vibration however, it was making me think, yeah. Maybe they are kind of really still within us. And thinking about it that way can remove even the separation. Thanks for saying that because it can even remove the separation I felt from well, she's in the afterlife, and I'm still here. But that DNA as energy, right? Quantum physics, all that stuff? Huh. Yeah. Maybe she is within me. I like that what you said. See so you taught me Stephen. That's really a cool No, seriously, I don't know if that's true.
Stephen Panus 39:31
It's something that I feel right? So that's all I'm speaking to is what I feel.
Vonne Solis 39:34
I think I read somewhere recently though like DNA never dies. And scientifically they're doing more and more with with stuff like that. And 'm fascinated by quantum physics and all of that, and everything happening in the in between. But anyway, that was just a fun thing. And I'm going to think about that because even if it is or isn't real, it doesn't matter. What we what we need for us in you know to believe for us? That's our thing. The DNA as the link to the afterlife. That's the key I'm trying to, you know, express here. That key change for me, as opposed to just it's there. But that could be a very real connection is what I'm saying. Interesting.
So I love your story of how you arrived at your book. So you are publishing soon in April. And this episode is audience airing just before publishing date. We will have a link to your website, Stephen, and people will be able to purchase Walk On through your website as well and get information about all that?
Stephen Panus 40:38
Yeah. So um, the website's really easy. It's stephenpanus.com. The book's available right now via pre-order at Barnes and Nobles, Books a Million but it doesn't officially launch till the 16th of April. So if you order late March, you'll receive that book on Tuesday the 16th.
Vonne Solis 40:56
That's awesome. So I want to turn to resilience. And so you're speaking all about that in the book, I wanted to bring the book up and its launch date at this point in the interview. We are going to just move into resilience, and motivation. And we're going to talk a little bit about values before we close this out. So one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is what you're sort of, how do I want to say this. What would you tell people, so there's resilience when you're in grief, and as a bereaved parent. And then there's resilience in life. Just in regular hardship and challenges like you said earlier. It's ups and downs for everybody in different ways. True. So in general, what would you say we need for resilience? And then, as a bereaved person, is there a difference or is it the exact same things that we need?
Stephen Panus 42:06
So I think the one thing that everyone needs, and you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, at the very bottom is air, shelter, water, food. The one that's missing that I believe is, should be there, it's hope. You need hope.
Vonne Solis 42:22
Okay.
Stephen Panus 42:23
And if you don't have hope, then I think it's really tough to find your resilience muscle because we all have it. It's within us. We just have to source it and mine it. So hope is instrumental. And I'll admit, I was hopeless for a while. I think anybody that loses a child suddenly, is hopeless.
Vonne Solis 42:42
Yeah. Yeah.
Stephen Panus 42:45
It took me a while to get out of the darkness. We were lucky. We've had a great therapist, who's been doing nothing but grief therapy for 40 years, respected in it. He saved our lives. And we still meet with him to this day, and he's become a friend. And I think that's important too, having good therapy help where you just talk about feelings. Talk about your pain and and have it validated and have it examined and realize that you're not as messed up as you think you are. We all feel so alone in our grief.
Vonne Solis 43:23
And so in grief particular, was it hope that, just hope or were there a few other things that you think are a little different and required for really tough tragedy, and bereavement?
Stephen Panus 43:38
The difference is that the adversity is much tougher in bereavement. When you lose a child it's it's brutal. It's a whole nother spectrum of adversity. At the end of the day, I view grief as just a form of adversity, and a wicked bad one. And one that's going to, you know, follow you for the rest of your life. You can't shed grief. Because grief is your love. So if you shed grief you're shedding your love. And I came to the conclusion that my, the intensity of my grief was just the intensity of my love for my son unconditionally.
Vonne Solis 44:18
Oh, absolutely.
Stephen Panus 44:19
That's kind of the message in my book, Vonne, is that this book transcends grief. So we're all suffering on some level. Everyone carries an invisible backpack. And whether they have a malady. A health diagnosis. A financial crisis. The mortgage is failing. They just lost their job. Their sibling went into rehab. There's a million different forms of grief out there. And the ability to to overcome that starts with hope, and it builds all the answers are within us. We all have a resilience muscle. We all have hope within. It took me a while. It's not like oh, you just fall off a horse. Get back up on. It's not like that. It's not like you, you broke your back. And the doctor says, Guess what? You're going to be fully healed. There's no fully healing in grief and time doesn't heal.
Vonne Solis 45:15
I know. I'm just going to add faith and trust to the hope. So I think that the hope, I agree with you 100%. If you cannot find that spark of hope, that you said that lies within us. Everything lies within us. We just have to ignite it somehow, right? But without the hope, I think that is the absolute number one thing in grief is that spark has to be there. I hope this can get better. I hope I can get whatever it is, whatever it is.
Stephen Panus 45:47
Yeah.
Vonne Solis 45:47
Then I think you really need the faith. And then I think you need the trust. And so I'm just gonna, for a longer term approach, I think those things are, are critical. Because I think people can lose hope when they don't see results fast enough, or in the way that they wanted things to work out.
Stephen Panus 46:04
Yes.
Vonne Solis 46:04
But when you have the faith and the trust, that you are on your path, and the more that we learn to develop an acceptance, and this is our life, and whatever brings us to that, right? That's when the faith and trust can sort of be solidified. And people go, Oh, yeah, it is working, it is working. But just be flexible. And let your hope take you where it needs to take you to find your path that you need to be on. Not everyone's going to be an author. Not everyone's going to be a public speaker. Not everyone's going to start anything. And a lot of people, like I love speaking to the people that are silent. And because it's it's like people like us, Stephen? The percentage, probably the small percentage of the bereaved that are out kind of leading and, and showing the inspiration and change and transformation is possible and all that wherever we are, wherever we are, in our journey. And so it's for all the others that are isolated, and in pain, and stuck and don't trust and have lost all faith and are in all of that. I'm speaking to you as well, and most especially to you audience. Because anybody that, like Stephen and I were where you maybe are today, or maybe you know are a little bit better, but feel you can't go any further, Stephen and I and others who are in this space working to demonstrate transformation can happen. It really can happen.
It isn't overnight. And it doesn't mean we don't have our triggers. And it doesn't mean we're not going to still feel pain and all of that. Of course we are. But it changes. And there it when it just becomes part of our journey. And I think it needs to be a really, really self-respecting journey. Parent bereavement. And I really think people need to just really understand and honour they've taken this on, and just give it its due grace. And allow yourself to not be perfect in it, right? Because we are surrounded, the reason I'm saying that Stephen, is because we were back 20 years ago and earlier, and still, to some degree are today, surrounded by the overcoming grief. Getting over grief. Moving on. You know, like there's a lot of that like, you know, dialogue and discourse. And the flip side of that is the silence. And so that's why I'm just giving a shout out to the people who feel silenced and without a voice. Like that's why I'm doing this. That's why I do this.
Stephen Panus 48:50
Yeah.
Vonne Solis 48:50
And I said to you before, and I've said, I said before we recorded, and I've said it on my show before. So Apple, Spotify, Google, please listen. reate a category, so that people in bereavement and grief can actually go and find people talking about this. Instead of parking it in education, and mental health and religion. I mean, think about that.
Stephen Panus 49:13
It's like I said grief is an individual journey. I think it's important for for anyone that is going through it in whatever form that is that they they practice self-care. They don't judge and say, Well, so and so is doing better, or they don't put a timeline on it. There is no timeline. Your timeline is your timeline. It's everyone, it's your own individual thing. Whether it's what is going to change. How it's going to change.
Vonne Solis 49:37
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 49:37
That's your pathway. And for me? It was I started, I was doing a lot of reading and I remember reading a quote and right before I gave a speech in September 2021 And it was from Aldous Huxley and he said, "Experience isn't what happens to a man. It's what a man does with what happens to him." And that really left a mark and I really marinated on that. And then I read Victor Frankel's book "Man's Search for Meaning".
Vonne Solis 50:01
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 50:02
It's about how forces outside your control can take away everything you possess, except one thing. And that's your ability to determine how you're going to respond to that situation.
Vonne Solis 50:11
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 50:11
There's little on this planet but we think we control a lot. And we control so little. Even if this is how we feel internally, about what happens to us. And when I really started to embrace that concept, it became apparent that it's as simple as you have a choice. I would find anything that I could find that I could latch on to, that would just give me reason to live another day. And build momentum, and, you know, and I've read some really powerful stories. I talked to a lot of people that have gone through this. Their own adversity. Their own form of grief. I read a powerful story about a 17 year old boy who, who dove into a pool and misjudged the depth, and he broke his neck and became a paraplegic. He was interviewed 20 years later and he was asked, How has that changed and what about his life had changed. And his responses were so revealing. He said, I, I broke my neck. I didn't break my spirit.
Vonne Solis 50:21
Wow.
Stephen Panus 50:21
He viewed his life as being abundant with meaning and purpose, the last 20 years, and that but for the accident, he's not sure that the growth that he achieved as a human being would never have occurred. And I thought, wow, that's, that's an inspiring outlook and perspective. And, and I, I relate to that mentality. That's like, who I am. And so, the more I read stuff like that, the more I talk to people that were positive, and I just focussed on staying as pos as positive as I could. Like you said. I had to honour that Jake's never coming back. And that that is hard to even just say.
Vonne Solis 52:00
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 52:00
It's hard to accept. There's part of my brain that still just won't accept that.
Vonne Solis 52:04
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 52:05
Maybe never will. I know it's the reality. But accepting it's something totally different. And I realize that I have to let go of the suffering. Not let go of Jake.
Vonne Solis 52:15
Yeah. So yeah, so they're not coming back to us physically. I feel super, super blessed for those of us that have visits with them in other forms. And, you know, and that'll, like I said, I'm just I'm so, I'm so optimistic it changes us for, for you where you are, and me, you know, where I am almost 19 years into this now. I promise you the journey does change. But you said key things. Choice. And we have the choice how we want to experience life, and to stay in that. So that's part of the resilience. That's part of you know, some people really love pain. As I said to someone recently, you know, I let grief become my companion. And it was my best friend for many, many years, because it was the only thing that understood me. But that doesn't mean it destroyed me. In fact, I used it to propel me into everything I do. And it was, but it was a choice. And I still remember vividly the moment I made the choice, I'm not going to let this go to waste. I'm going to do what I need to do with the experience. So we do pay a lot of attention to this for people who are showing resilience and showing the way especially in disability and things like you mentioned with the individual that broke his neck and you know, and paralysis. And you know, we are we look to them and feel so, so inspired. And I, I would take that over losing a child any day.
Stephen Panus 53:41
My wife was like, take all my limbs, but bring Jake back.
Vonne Solis 53:44
Exactly. So in our in our grief space, once again, in our grief space, we do need to listen. Pay attention. But most importantly, be able to readily find the voices doing this. As I say every voice counts. I want to quickly talk, Stephen, because I encourage audience buy Stephens book. I want to read your book. And you'll get all of this in there and more. But I did just want to talk about values. Do you think people understand values enough today? Because how much do we talk about values? And how do they play into the grief process?
Stephen Panus 54:27
Look, I'm an optimist. So I hope we do understand values. I think they're universal and the moral compass. So hopefully most people get values and understand the significance. And take gratitude for example. You need gratitude if you're going to lift yourself out of a hole.
Vonne Solis 54:47
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 54:47
And you you have to find something to be grateful for. And each one of us does have something to be grateful for. Maybe more than just one thing. So gratitude is a great one. You, um I started just by making a gratitude list. And you know what? I can, I can complain as much as I want about losing my son. I can talk about how unfair it is, and why me? And I certainly did a lot of that in my introspection early on. Who doesn't right? You're looking for answers. Our brains want to understand logical reasoning. But there's some things in life that you're just not gonna get an answer for. But there's always somebody that's worse off, you know? I thought of the children in Ukraine, or in Gaza, that are living just a horrible existence right now and suffering. And they have every reason to complain to and or, or any other person. You know, in any corner of this planet, there's somebody suffering. And it's universal concept. And death is indiscriminate. This, it happens to all of us. I had a friend told me the other day. It's a great line. None of us are gettin' outta here alive.
Vonne Solis 55:53
I love that.
Stephen Panus 55:55
So we have this one life. Do something with it right? And make the best of it. And again, it was a choice for me. And I think those values of like being kind. Serving your community. Being grateful.
Vonne Solis 56:08
Yeah.
Stephen Panus 56:08
Having grace, being humble, having integrity. You know, standing for something. Help, helping your fellow man and woman and being a brother and a sister. We're all connected. And we're here to love one another. And a lot of that is getting lost in the discourse of today which is unfortunate. But it doesn't mean we have to concede to the, to the uncivil discourse that is going on. At the end of the day, love will conquer. And when people understand that, and can treat each other with more respect and dignity, I think it'll be a much better place. But it takes all of us to contribute our part in it.
Vonne Solis 56:49
I agree.
Stephen Panus 56:49
Hopefully my book helps others. That's the goal. I wanted to help myself first and foremost, selfishly. It was my survival. Hopefully, it helps my family. And hopefully, it helps a lot of other people that to realize that no matter what you're suffering, there is a way to walk on. And you're not walking away from your grief. You're just walking on with your life, in the best way, and form and shape that you can.
Vonne Solis 56:49
Beautifully, beautifully said. I did just want to say quickly relating to values. Everything that you just said. Some of the values that you identified. I think people forget about them. And and either that or just don't pay them enough consideration. What are my values? And so that was the point to this is for anyone watching this or listening to this in in this interview with what Stephen is talking about. Both of our losses. Anybody else who has suffered a loss. Anybody who has suffered anything that thinks, you know, the, you know, life has, sucks. It has done this to me. When we can apply these values, especially in our worst adversity. Our tragedy. This is where we really shine as human beings. And I don't think it takes that much to ignite proper values.
Like so, in other words, to be kind, it's very hard to be kind when you're in pain. You know, it can be very hard. One of the things I did early on in my grief is smiled at people. I was a natural smiler anyway. But I literally had to force myself but I did it. And I loved it because they smiled back. And most, not all of them, but most of them. They had no idea. And I did that about two three weeks in. And they had no idea I had just lost my daughter to suicide. But it it helped me. I found it soothing and comforting. Because you share any any act of kindness. Any act of a positive value, that energy that's in there? You do get it back tenfold people. And I believe it is part of a healing unfolding within us that it doesn't matter if it takes the rest of your life. A little ounce of healing. Any nth of healing. Nth - n t h of healing is healing felt and transforms with within us. So I love what you say. And that's all I'm saying is people. Pay attention to your values if you're not already. And if you are? Remember them. To live by them and share them and I think the world would be a better place. Honestly.
Stephen Panus 59:21
It takes no effort to be kind.
Vonne Solis 59:23
Exactly, exactly. So Stephen. Coming to the top of the hour here. Is there anything I have not asked you? I've missed that you would like to share as a key point. You've definitely shared a lot of wisdom and kindness in your words for others, and taught me a thing or two as well. I'll just remind people they can go to stephenpanus.com for all information and your resources. Is there anything else you want to share?
Stephen Panus 59:50
I just want to say that thank you for having me on Vonne and thank you for being so compassionate and kind. And I'm sorry for the loss of your daughter. I really am and
Vonne Solis 59:59
I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that.
Stephen Panus 1:00:01
I wish we were talking about something else. We're connected today for, for other reasons and, but I'm glad to have met you.
Vonne Solis 1:00:09
Oh, I'm very glad to have met you too. It's amazing what you're doing. And so thank you again for sharing what you've shared on the Grief Talk podcast. I appreciate you as well.
Stephen Panus 1:00:18
Thank you, Vonne. Keep up the good work.
Vonne Solis 1:00:21
You too.