Ep. 75 The Hard Truths About & Support for Partner Grief and Suicide Loss

Today’s guest is Michelle Ann Collins. As the author of two books for spouses of suicide and those supporting them, and the founder of Inhabit Joy, Michelle works with the grieving to help them reclaim their wholeness and build resilience for life’s inevitable challenges.

 After losing her husband to military suicide, and experiencing other losses, as a certified grief educator and grief yoga instructor, Michelle combines the tools she’s learned as a Wellness coach and from her studies in positive psychology, neuroscience, and spirituality to turn post-traumatic stress into post-traumatic growth and resilience to help her clients thrive.

WARNING: Some viewers or listeners may find some of the content in this episode sensitive or triggering related to suicide loss. 

TIMESTAMP:
Welcome (0:00)
Introduction to episode (0:21)
Loss, grief, and healing after spousal suicide. (1:47)
Grief and trauma after a partner suicide loss. (3:02)
Soldier suicide prevention and online research. (12:14)
Loss, grief, and exclusion after a partner's suicide. (17:43)
Grief, loss, and disenfranchisement. (23:28)
Grief, loss, and relationships after a suicide. (28:42)
Grief and healing after a suicide loss. (35:42)
Grief, anticipatory grief, and emotional processing. (42:35)
Grief support for widows and widowers. (50:41)
Grief and healing after spouse or partner suicide. (55:37)
Grief, loss, and healing with Michelle. (1:02:27)

Connect with Michelle:
https://inhabitjoy.com/

Connect with Vonne:
https://vonnesolis.com

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Transcript

Michelle Ann Collins  0:00  
Welcome to another episode of Grief Talk. Everything you want to know about grief and more. I'm your host, Vonne Solis. As an author, mentor and bereaved mom since 2005, through guest interviews and coaching, here's where you'll always get great content that is inspiring and practical to help you heal after loss. 

Vonne Solis  0:21  
Today's guest is Michelle Ann Collins. After losing her husband to suicide, and experiencing other losses, as an author of two books for spouses of suicide loss, and those supporting them and the founder of Inhabit Joy, Michelle works with the grieving to help them reclaim their wholeness and build resilience for life's inevitable challenges. As a certified grief educator and grief yoga instructor, Michelle combines the tools she's learned as a wellness coach, and from her studies in positive psychology, neuroscience and spirituality, to turn post-traumatic stress into post-traumatic growth and resilience to help her clients thrive. 

Okay, so welcome to the podcast Michelle. I'm absolutely delighted that you are here with me today.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:10  
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Vonne Solis  1:12  
So for the audience, as I introduced Michelle in the intro, she did lose her husband to suicide, and has experienced other losses. We're going to be opening up with that and a conversation completely around how Michelle dealt with that. How it impacted her. What she has done since then to do the work she does today to help the grieving and it's going to be a jam-packed filled conversation. And we're going to have lots of fun in this one. Some serious stuff, too. Let's go Michelle!

So wanting to start right away with the loss of your husband to suicide. You and I have talked briefly prior to the podcast and I said to you, I don't think there's enough support or understanding of support for spouses. We've had some high profile spousal suicides in the last year. Twitch, I'm thinking of actually. And when we have these, you know, celebrity ones. A few years ago, Mick Jagger's partner, a well known designer took her life. We had Kate Spade, take her life, you know. Robin Williams going back even more further. And so in my opinion, that's kind of what brings attention to, Oh, suicide. But then the spouses get lost in all of that. The partners. So how about we just open straight up with that and you share what you would like to share with my audience, who may also be impacted by this. Watching this episode. Because this is what it's geared to today, audience and share whatever you'd like about your partner. Your husband's suicide. How it impacted you.

Michelle Ann Collins  3:02  
Okay, thank you. Suicide is so stigmatized that when you lose someone to suicide, there's all this extra guilt and shame that surrounds the loss that isn't necessarily part of any other kind of deaths, although there is usually guilt when you lose someone. 

Vonne Solis  3:24  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  3:25  
But there's this extra layer of what could I have done? You know, if someone dies from cancer, you pretty much don't take responsibility. Like, oh, I should have seen the signs or something like that. So when my husband died by suicide, I had had a suicide in my family before about maybe 20, 15 years earlier, my uncle. But it wasn't as impactful, obviously. But I did, I did witness the and it was it was sort of swept under the family rug. We didn't talk about it very much. Nobody went to therapy. And I knew about suicide, and I knew there were suicide awareness groups and that kind of thing. My husband was military. So a lot of, he was retired. A lot of our, you know, some of his buddies had died by suicide by the time he left. And it was, so it was talked about a little bit, but not nearly enough. 

And then the separate part of losing your spouse. When you lose your spouse, your whole world changes. I mean, your your checking account. Your, you know, or maybe your living situation. Your identity, certainly. Oftentimes, where you live. All of these things. So after my husband Glen died, I was really in a tailspin for quite a long time. I ended it up developing PTSD because of the trauma of the death and the time surrounding the death because, you know, sometimes suicide comes out of the blue. In my case, he had been threatening and very unstable for the weeks and months leading up to the suicide. And so we had separated because he had become really irrational. So that added another layer of guilt. 

Vonne Solis  5:30  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  5:31  
If only, if only. 

Vonne Solis  5:33  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  5:33  
So the big work after a suicide loss is you know, stop should-ing on yourself. The coulda, shoulda would'ves. That's the big work. 

Vonne Solis  5:42  
Yes.

Michelle Ann Collins  5:43  
Once they're gone, you can't change it. So the big work is Okay. Here I am now. How do I make a new life from the ashes of this experience?

Vonne Solis  5:53  
No kidding. Can I just ask a couple of questions and only answer what you'd like to. When did this loss happen and how long were you married? 

Michelle Ann Collins  6:02  
We were together just under two years. Married about 20 months. 

Vonne Solis  6:06  
Okay.

Michelle Ann Collins  6:07  
And it happened in April of 2016. 

Vonne Solis  6:10  
Okay, yeah. So the reason I ask that is because I think I think putting a time, you know, people are always asking. Well, somebody just reminded me this the other day, who's on who works in grief and you know, how long is the grief going to last? She's also widowed. Well, who knows? It's different for everyone. And so you know, you've had years with this. A few years with this. And the process does change if we allow it to change. But I also just want to acknowledge and point out that, well I want to ask you this, actually. The fact that you weren't together for years and years and years, did you feel any, I don't know if the word would be stigma, but let's say judgment around the fact or have had even comments. Well, you weren't together very long. You'll find someone else. Like that. Because other people, you know, might be in the exact same situation. And that's a problem all of its all of it on on its own, don't you think? 

Michelle Ann Collins  7:15  
Yes. And first, I want to I want to speak to the question, how long will I grieve? And David Kessler, my, my guru in grief, says, Well, how long will your loved one be dead? Which I think is a little intense, but it's true. You're always gonna miss them. 

Vonne Solis  7:33  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  7:33  
As far as the short time we were together, it was very, very intense. I mean, we we met and a week after our first date, we knew we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together. I mean, he literally proposed after we had known each other one week. 

Vonne Solis  7:33  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  7:33  
It was really intense. We were love blind. It was it was crazy intense. And 

Vonne Solis  7:55  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  7:55  
And it was crazy. I have to admit.

Vonne Solis  7:57  
Well, I got engaged after after two weeks of meeting my husband, but this is back before we had internet, really. And we've been married 32 years. Together 33. So it does, it does happen. So what I what, the reason I'm asking you about this, and we're talking about this a little bit. Is the time you're with a person who dies by suicide, whatever your relationship is, it has no bearing on the impact of that suicide. And I just want you to really understand that. Because I would think there's an awful lot of guilt that accompanies people feeling, Well, I didn't know them that long. I wasn't married to them. They were just a friend. They were just a colleague. 

So what I just want to, you know, do give a quick nod to here is, I have met people who lost a friend in middle school to suicide, and in their 40s or 50s, or even older, still feel guilt about it. And have been very, very impacted. So that is the message I just want to get across here. And I also wanted to say, from one suicide loss survivor to another, of course, I am extremely sorry that you've had to have this experience as well. I'm a bereaved mom of a child suicide. So I get it. I get it. And and so we're just acknowledging that like, you know, that I do know, after 18 years in this, that there are similarities in how we are impacted by suicide. So you say you had developed PTSD? Yeah, me too. And I just wasn't diagnosed for nine years. So that did a number on me. So I advocate for people being aware how the trauma has impacted them as well. Some may people may get PTSD.Many others may not. But guaranteed we're all traumatized. So I also want to make I also want to make that point.

Michelle Ann Collins  9:58  
And there are many deaths that don't come with trauma. Most deaths come with grief. 

Vonne Solis  10:03  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  10:04  
Not all come with trauma. Almost all suicide losses come with trauma. So you have a really complex situation.

Vonne Solis  10:10  
Yeah. There's going to be trauma for somebody. And the ripple effect, the World Health Organization has lots of research on it as do other organizations. But guaranteed, it isn't just the family impacted by a suicide. And as we change in grief, also, we're not there for the people who knew us the way we were. And that causes its own grief, too. So just giving a nod to that. 

Alright, so your husband, obviously, it's a shock, and he takes his life. What I did find interesting, though in what you said, is that he had been talking about it. And is that kind of rare? Like I read that of all of the people, this is coming from psychiatrists, who express suicidal ideation, or even mention it, 8 to 10%, on average, 8 to 10% actually carry through with it. And I've met more people where they've never said a word. They've kept it, and especially our kids, maybe told their best friend. Which my daughter did. That's it, but not like, I'm doing it tomorrow at you know, whatever. So was that unusual? Or is this something that I'm not sure how I want to phrase this. I want to be very delicate here. 

But it was a military death. And when I spoke earlier about certain deaths, military is another one where we talk more openly about suicide. In fact, in the DSM V, they point you to Veterans Affairs, you know, for understanding suicide. They speak a lot about US Veterans Affairs. So is the talking about it in just in your experience, or anything you may have learned, kind of more more, I don't want to say common but more prevalent for the military? Because there are a lot of military suicides right?

Michelle Ann Collins  12:14  
Yeah. I think in the last several years, it has really blown open. You know, there's a there's an organization that I donate to and volunteer for. That's called Stop Soldier Suicide. And there's a number of other organizations that are completely focused on military suicide loss.

Vonne Solis  12:36  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  12:36  
So, we need more. That's one of my passion projects. But there is definitely more talk about it. I think there's a difficulty at least and this is just, you know, I only have experience with one. But what I noticed when one of Glen's friends died by suicide, just maybe a year before he did. Maybe ten months before. I noticed that he kept he was aware of it. Like he saw the announcement on Facebook in a group he was in with his military buddies, but he barely told me about it. And he never talked about it. And none of them talked about it. So so what we need is to figure out a way to reach these soldiers and let them know it's okay to talk about it. I think the incongruity. The difficulty that they need to overcome and soldiers are supposed to be really frickin' tough, right? 

Vonne Solis  13:34  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  13:35  
They're dending our, our country. They're defending our freedom. Putting their lives on the line and fight. 

Vonne Solis  13:40  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  13:41  
And now we're supposed to get them to talk about their feelings. So I think that's part of the disconnect, and why we're losing so many of these guys and women too. But so many of our soldiers, because talking about your feelings, and being a soldier don't necessarily come together. So so that's where the work is happening. And it is happening. 

Vonne Solis  13:41  
That's good. 

Michelle Ann Collins  13:42  
We are saving lives. And there's also a project called The Black Box project that I just saw in some big newspaper. It might even have been New York Times or, and the black box project is taking soldiers' electronic lives. You know, their their phones, their emails, their online, social media after they die. And looking through it to see if there are any patterns that can be recognized, that might be able to be seen in the future to you know, intervene. And I think that's a brilliant project. And I've been helping out with that one as well. 

Vonne Solis  14:49  
Yeah. Wow. Like if they might be communicating to others. Researching. That kind of thing?

Michelle Ann Collins  14:56  
Yeah.

Vonne Solis  14:57  
Actually, it's been going. It's been going on a long time. Actually when my daughter died in 2005. She was 22. She was very tech savvy. Very. And she was doing things long before, making apps and stuff long before it became popular. But back then, as I said

Michelle Ann Collins  15:14  
Yeah.

Vonne Solis  15:15  
Back then we didn't really have Internet as we know it today. We didn't have Facebook. We didn't have you know, groups. We didn't we just didn't have social media. And the police confiscated her computer. 

Michelle Ann Collins  15:27  
Oh!

Vonne Solis  15:27  
Yeah. Yeah. And so the reason I'm telling you that and being honest, is because this was going on 18 years ago, and probably longer than that.  And did find a pattern of her visiting these dark websites. And they would not, they wiped it. So when they gave the computer back two months later, that information was gone. But at the time, one of her friends got me into another site, so I could just sort of look. And, you know, I guess he got me in on what would be a proxy today. And just look. I never became a member. And it was one of a few probably, that were available back then. So imagine how many would be available now. 

Back then, though, it was only like chat in a community. Just messaging. And there were a lot of professional people on there. There were doctors. There were medical professionals saying this is how you would do this. If you want to go this way, this is what you would need. Certain drugs. Certain, anyway, I don't want to go into detail but you name it. Any, any any type of question posed as to what would be the success rate? People were looking for the success rate. And I saw as young as about 15, although the site was only supposed to be like, I think it was 18 and up. You know, obviously, I was searching to see if I could find evidence of my daughter being on that site, which I could not. And it's probably just as well I didn't find it. But you know, that for sure would have contributed. For sure contributed to her death. And so just pointing that out. So this black box project? I don't know what they're going to do with it after the fact except address maybe the cry. What are you saying? Why don't you want to be here? Things like that. I think that's amazing. And then do it maybe for the military and then let's do it for everybody. 

So just going back quickly. I don't want to dwell on this for you at all. But were you worried about Glen? Like did I did I hear you right? And you said that he had said a few things about it that concerned you? But hindsight hindsight, it's everything right? 

Michelle Ann Collins  17:43  
Right. Well, no, I mean, he, he told me his plans. He told me his specific plan. He bought he purchased a gun. And I actually made him return it. And this was four months before he died. So this had been going on and we were we were doing the work. We were, you know, taking him to therapy. Taking him to you know, the I was a yoga, well, still am, a yoga instructor. And, yoga, meditation. All of the things that can help with mental health. 

Vonne Solis  18:15  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  18:16  
And he just was spiraling and not able to stay rational, or, or functional. And we we tried. I mean, we did everything. And then when he got to the point where I was starting to fear him. I was fearing for myself. For my own safety. That's when I had to ask him to move out. And it was really, really hard, because even though he had said he was no longer planning. You know, I only heard about it in December, and he moved out in March. He never mentioned it again. But I know he was talking to someone else about it. One of his people that he was spending time with after he had moved out from our home. And she is the one who the day that he died, sent me a message on Facebook and said I can't get a hold of Glen. Can you go, he had moved into an apartment just a few blocks from our house.

Vonne Solis  19:18  
Okay, yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  19:19  
Can you go check on him? And up until then I was really trying to believe he was telling me that he was telling me he was okay. He was telling me he was doing, you know, all this great stuff and not doing things that were self-destructive. But I found out after he died, that he was not truthful towards the end of his life with me. And after his friend called to tell me, called me on Facebook to tell me that she couldn't get a hold of him, I went to the apartment and I found him.

Vonne Solis  19:54  
You're the one that found him. Well, it's no wonder you have P, it's no wonder you have PTSD. I mean, honestly, that's just a heck of a lot. And as you were talking, our situation was actually kind of similar. Couldn't get hold of my daughter. And you know, it's still really sensitive for me. So I don't like to think about that day. Although I can think about that day every minute, just like I'm sure you can? Clear as a bell. But the same thing. So I found out that she was gone on the way in from our home in the country to the city. And I had to avoid the highway for oh my God, at least a year. I couldn't, year and a half. It took me oh, three, four or five years before I could get on the highway and not feel traumatized by that you know because our memories.

Michelle Ann Collins  20:39  
I undersand that.

Vonne Solis  20:40  
I know, I know you do. I know you do. So like just I'm just like, wow. And I'm a suicide loss survivor audience. And for you also watching or listening to this that are suicide loss survivor, like that's a lot that you're dealing with and had to deal with Michelle. That is a lot, a lot.

Michelle Ann Collins  21:01  
Yeah. There were a lot of

Vonne Solis  21:03  
That's a lot. 

Michelle Ann Collins  21:04  
There were a lot of things like you were mentioning earlier about our relatively short relationship. And there were a lot of things that made me feel disenfranchised. His military buddies, thank goodness, they rallied around his kids. But they also rallied around his ex wife. And not me. I was not included in the military gathering.

Vonne Solis  21:30  
Really 

Michelle Ann Collins  21:31  
She was. 

Vonne Solis  21:33  
Wow.

Michelle Ann Collins  21:34  
Because we were separated. 

Vonne Solis  21:36  
Hmm. 

Michelle Ann Collins  21:37  
They basically just assumed that meant I didn't care for Glen or I didn't love him or didn't want to be with him. And 

Vonne Solis  21:44  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  21:45  
nobody wanted to hear my side of the story. They were all in grief and trauma. And 

Vonne Solis  21:50  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  21:51  
you know, I certainly wasn't going to push anything on anybody. But it did make me feel really, so much worse, to not have a community in which to grieve this man who I was married to. 

Vonne Solis  22:05  
And loved.

Michelle Ann Collins  22:05  
To be accepted into yes loved very much. Crazy love. 

Vonne Solis  22:10  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  22:10  
I wasn't accepted into the group of people who were mourning him. He also had an aunt. His closest relative who was actually the first person I called after he died. And she rejected me also, even though I called her. Same thing. She she because we were separated, she completely rejected me and was mourning with the the others. And it was incredibly painful because I wanted to be with her and her stories about her and about him and their life together. And she ended up unfriending me on Facebook. And the only time she talked to me was she wanted some of his ashes. 

Vonne Solis  22:57  
Isn't that interesting? 

Michelle Ann Collins  22:59  
It was heartbreaking.

Vonne Solis  23:00  
And you're the second partner that well I have I've met, but someone I actually knew. And same thing happened. And her partner, they weren't married in that case, but together for years, and he died, and I knew him as well. And the family excluded her. From what I understand from her point of view that they just excluded her from basically everything. It's a very, it's grief is so weird. And so again, my my deepest, like, condolences for you for Glen, but also for you. My heart actually goes out to you to have to have dealt with that on top of everything else, and finding Glen, right? And then it's almost like, you don't count and you're discarded. Which completely, as you said, disenfranchises you. Your grief. It makes you just not matter. And I will guarantee you there's hardly any support out there let alone discourse on the subject. And we need to make people or help people become aware that everyone is entitled to their grief and should be respected for it.

Michelle Ann Collins  24:19  
It was years before I when I went through my grief education course and read David Kessler's book.

Vonne Solis  24:26  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  24:27  
That that's when I finally felt like oh, my grief is legitimate. This pain I'm feeling you know, on top of the guilt and the shame. The rejection of these people do who didn't consider my grief reasonable or that I wasn't entitled to grieve. 

Vonne Solis  24:45  
Right. Right.

Michelle Ann Collins  24:47  
You know, that's when I really started to be able to feel like okay. My pain is real and my pain is legitimate. And now you know, I help others with that. I wrote books about it.

Vonne Solis  25:03  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  25:04  
I work with suicide loss survivors. And 

Vonne Solis  25:08  
Yes.

Michelle Ann Collins  25:08  
spouse loss survivors and loss of partner. 

Vonne Solis  25:12  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  25:13  
And the partner I think is a really important point, too. You mentioned that that the people you were talking about weren't married. That's, that's another time that can be so tricky. Because if you're not legally married, then the family sort of takes over the grieving.

Vonne Solis  25:32  
 Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  25:32  
And then you're left out. Like, I was, like, you were a friend. And that's another level is the friends sometimes get disenfranchised. Well, you're not family so and sometimes friends are closer than the family is.

Vonne Solis  25:47  
I know, yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  25:48  
My point is, everyone who grieves

Vonne Solis  25:52  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  25:52  
has pain and it's legitimate, and there is help to find. Support, community. It's out there. You just have to seek it. Even for friends. Even for people who weren't legally married.

Vonne Solis  26:04  
What you're saying is, is so important. So I want to acknowledge the work that you're doing? Without the experience and without going through that and really understanding it, you wouldn't be able to help other people in this way. You're lived experience. And so I while it's horrible you went through that. Just like I lost all my friends. Felt totally isolated. I know that part of it. I didn't have the people, you know, dropping casseroles off and stuff like that. I felt very ostracized. I felt like our house had a great big, you know, black cross on it. And as said, we lived in the country. And we didn't know a lot of people in the community. But the people far and wide, and even extended family, simply weren't there for us. 

The other piece I want to say is, as you were talking, and you know, and the families. Even if you're the second legal wife, but maybe you know, you didn't have kids with him. So the first wife becomes more into the fold, you know? Accepted into the fold. The only thing I'm going to offer to both you Michelle and the audience here is, I remember, I was very jealous of anybody else grieving my daughter. Now, I know it sounds weird. But it comes I think, from this place of whatever the attachment you have, for every individual to the person who has died? And especially in a traumatic death? I think it's amplified. That's your relationship. But those that maybe are closest or feel that they are closest. Like so a parent losing a child, right? No one else is going to understand that unless you're a parent who's lost a child. Same with a spouse, so on. And when it gets to extended family and then beyond that into the friends and the work community. Anyway, I felt that no one loved her as much as me. And then so therefore, they didn't understand my grief. And the temptation and the actual reaction to push them away, and even cut them off, and certainly set boundaries was very natural for me to do it. And I think that and then you know that that is common when you're talking. And that's how we disenfranchise other people ourselves as the grieving. And

Michelle Ann Collins  28:41  
It is very common. So many of the spouses and not just suicide loss, but all spousal loss. Spouse and partner loss. 

Vonne Solis  28:50  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  28:50  
That so often the inlaws or the spouse's family

Vonne Solis  28:56  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  28:56  
just cuts them out. Like yeah, you're not with my son anymore. My son's gone, so I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. 

Vonne Solis  29:03  
Right. 

Michelle Ann Collins  29:04  
And so you lose your family along with your identity. Along with your partner. 

Vonne Solis  29:10  
Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  29:11  
You know, all of a sudden, you don't have that same place to go on the holidays. Or you don't have that you know, somebody to celebrate your partner or spouse's birthday with because the family's all you know, when when what would be ideal is everybody coming together who loved that person? 

Vonne Solis  29:29  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  29:29  
And grieving together. And remembering together. And it's just nobody's at their best when they're grieving. 

Vonne Solis  29:39  
No, and 

Michelle Ann Collins  29:40  
So many relationships end that didn't need to, because friends aren't being supportive. Family's not being supportive. And it's just because they don't know what to do. Which is why my big soapbox is grief education. This is how to talk to someone who's grieving. This is how when you're grieving to keep your relationships going. 

Vonne Solis  30:02  
So it's really important to emphasize here and I know you do work, you know, as you were just mentioning with those who are trying to support and want to support the grieving. But we do it to ourselves. Like you're talking. The family. You, you know, on a scale of you know, did you have kids with them? Well, then the blood's in him. The blood's in the kids so we'll accept you in the fold. I see all of these things happening which is making me really, for the first time literally understand grief is very instinctual. And to me, it's just a very basic instinctual reaction. It's not a response. Reaction. But the problem is people get trapped in that. And that's the work I do.

Michelle Ann Collins  30:44  
When you're in pain? Hurt people hurt people. 

Vonne Solis  30:48  
Exactly. 

Michelle Ann Collins  30:49  
So you're suffering. You're in pain. You want to be seen. You want to be supported. 

Vonne Solis  30:53  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  30:54  
And then those other people who loved him or her are suffering and in pain, and they want to feel seen, and they want to be supported. And people are so shocked, because the people that they should be getting support from in their mind aren't supporting them. And so instead of just okay, they can't support me right now. I'm gonna go find someone who can.

Vonne Solis  31:15  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  31:16  
They blow up the relationship.

Vonne Solis  31:18  
Absolutely. And it's like, I was gonna say, it's like the cat chasing the tail. You know, it's never gonna stop. And also when you are immediately impacted by a suicide, and any other sudden traumatic death, you know? But we're really talking a lot right now about suicide is like, so you don't expect it. You have no warning. And even if you do sort of, something's wrong? You know, like, it's, our brains are not really wired to expect a suicide. We pray to God, nothing's going to happen. But certainly for me, as a parent, I might have been worried. And I was worried, but I didn't know about what. And it never even crossed my mind, my daughter would take her life because I didn't think she would hurt me like that. And yes, I know, audience, it isn't about them thinking that way. They're not thinking in that moment of suicide, who they're going to hurt. And even if they are, they're not going to have that at the top of the list. They know they gotta end the pain that's happening. That coming from psychiatrists, not me. And that's a really tough one to accept. 

And that's where the letting go of what you think you could have, should have done, can happen is really understanding, you probably can't stop something that's going to happen. But I believe and do work in the area as well, where we need to feel at least we tried. And that's where awareness and communication comes in and knowing how to even talk to your loved one at risk and calling them on it. I'm a huge proponent of you know, are you are you thinking of ending your life? And that's my approach with a child. And I have absolutely raised my son, who was 13 when his sister died completely differently. But for years, I thought I was like a really bad mom. You know? Spouses might think they were really bad spouse, you know, because they couldn't save the loved one and all of that. 

Michelle Ann Collins  33:27  
There's blame from in laws. Oftentimes the inlaws are like, how come you didn't stop it? 

Vonne Solis  33:34  
Oh, my God, really? Oh!

Michelle Ann Collins  33:37  
Yeah cuz it it's, yeah, I've heard. I've heard some things, let me tell you. But it's because the for the inlaws? Again, hurt people hurt people. The inlaws are suffering so badly, because they lost their child. 

Vonne Solis  33:50  
Yes.

Michelle Ann Collins  33:51  
They are lashing out. It is easier to blame, than it is to feel your pain. So if you can point fingers and externalize the badness?

Vonne Solis  34:02  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  34:03  
You don't have to feel it quite as deeply. You can turn your your grieving pain into hatred for your daughter in-law, who is now no longer your daughter in-law because her husband died. So it's, yeah.

Vonne Solis  34:17  
You're saying something really important. So I'm going to ask this question for myself and the audience. Are you legally when your husband died? When Glen died? You immediately stopped becoming a daughter in-law or is this more a social construct?

Michelle Ann Collins  34:34  
Legally? Yeah. I mean, his parents weren't living. I'm not giving a personal example with this. Legally, you're no longer part of the family. I mean, of course, if you have children, then those are still their grandchildren. 

Vonne Solis  34:46  
Yes. But you but you as the individual? The relationship's severed. Cut off. Boom. And so then it really does depend on the relationship you had to the inlaws. How they're impacted by their adult child's death. How much control they want over remembering him or her. You know? It's it's really about this ownership of, I need to preserve this this child in the way that only I can do it because I know them the best.

Michelle Ann Collins  35:21  
Right. And everybody, everybody's in pain. So nobody's acting compassionately or in anyone's best interest. 

Vonne Solis  35:29  
Oh wow. So let me ask you this moving on a little bit, Michelle. First of all, did you did you ever repair the relationships with the inlaws? Or was that severed permanently when Glen died?

Yeah. With his his parent's family? 

Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  35:46  
No. It wasn't his parents. His parents were both passed away. It was his his aunt.

Vonne Solis  35:54  
So the family just, let's say his family. So that was severed. So you have to grieve that as well, which you alluded to before. You have to grieve that and all the other secondary losses. And that I think, yeah, we, we need voices in that area. Which you're obviously offering your voice and educating and advocating for support in this area, I'll just say this. It, it took me a number of years to accept this concept that everybody had a relationship with Janaya. And their grief matters. It to them, it's as painful as mine is to me. And I'm not gonna lie. It took me a number of years to accept that. You know, you can intellectually sit there and say it? But it's completely another to mean it and live it and honor the pain. The only thing I'm going to add to that, and I have said this over the years is we are not usually the best support for each other in the family because we don't necessarily understand and nor should we, no one can understand in my family, what it's like for me as a mom, bereaved. And I can't understand for them what it's like, as a sibling, or as an auntie, or an uncle or anything like that. So it takes a big person and a big heart. You've got to open and make room in your heart wouldn't you agree, Michelle?

Michelle Ann Collins  37:33  
Yes. But you also have to be a certain amount down your healing journey before you can open your heart because at first you're just like an injured animal. Ultimately, you're not thinking with your higher self. You're thinking I am suffering. Why isn't everyone taking care of this? Why isn't anyone helping me? Everybody should be paying attention to me and my pain.

Vonne Solis  37:57  
Yes. 

Michelle Ann Collins  37:57  
And then there's all these people in pain around you. 

Vonne Solis  38:00  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  38:01  
They're all thinking the same thing right? 

Vonne Solis  38:03  
Oh, my goodness. 

Michelle Ann Collins  38:04  
The same way. 

Vonne Solis  38:04  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  38:04  
But the best work that we can do in order to provide support for our loved ones is to heal or get us, I don't know that we ever actually heal. But get as far down the healing journey as you can. 

Vonne Solis  38:19  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  38:20  
So that you can reconnect with your compassion and your understanding for the other people who are in the same who are also grieving. 

Vonne Solis  38:29  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  38:29  
And that's work. It takes 

Vonne Solis  38:31  
Oh!

Michelle Ann Collins  38:31  
Like you said, sometimes years.

Vonne Solis  38:33  
Oh, lifetime! The other thing is also if you have to be the first to make a change. To do something to embrace healing for the family? I was the first and remain the leader in my family. And this is especially crucial in the first few years. I'd say the first for us ten. Because the family fell apart everything. Everything falls apart, like you're saying, Michelle. And when you're in the family and yes in pain and then angry and all of you know there's numerous emotions. So you're not really able to look at them. Dissect them. Do inner work. I was because I had a spiritual practice at that point for 23 years. I was already wired that way. But had I not been? And also I became an Angel Therapy practitioner right away. So had I not done that? I'm not sure I'd be on the planet, truthfully. I'm really not sure. 

Michelle Ann Collins  38:45  
I understand.

Vonne Solis  39:12  
I'm not sure.

Michelle Ann Collins  39:30  
When a primary relative dies by suicide your suicide risk escalates. 

Vonne Solis  39:36  
Yeah, yeah. Now, I had my son to live for but I'm being honest here. I'm talking these are feelings. These are feelings. We don't necessarily act on them. But the isolation we feel? Which is huge even within the family. Within the you know, the partnership. And there's just so many compounding factors, each unique to every single person and that family unit, no matter who has died by suicide. But it does take 100% I agree with you, it takes that certain, you know, level of healing. Moving forward. You can't, in my opinion, you can't really move forward without healing. But I'm using the word gingerly because I still know people today, years later in their grief that don't like the word healing. I didn't like it for a number of years. And I didn't want anyone to tell me, oh, maybe you can heal when they, shut up. Don't tell me that. I knew myself I could. But I didn't want anyone else saying that. 

So I say that respectfully within our grieving community. That, you know, any amount of willingness to just be a little bit better than you know, today than yesterday? That is what eventually allows us to be able to open up the dialogue with the ones around us, we love very, very much, who can't communicate. So if you end up being the leader of that tribe, who can open the conversation, even by saying what you're feeling, it's a start. Right? And 

Michelle Ann Collins  41:13  
Yeah.

Vonne Solis  41:13  
It's a start. And in the end, I think, ultimately, except for our younger surviving children, and maybe even a little older ones, I just, you know. I took it on me as sort of a responsibility as a parent, to make sure the family remained intact. And it doesn't mean I got everything right. I didn't. I grappled for years and years and today, it's still not right, you know? But it's our broken little pieces mended back together. And I still believe that sort of how I am functioning, influences the family. It's a very small family, thank God. Because I wouldn't want to be influencing too many people. But you know, but I think that, like when we're talking families here, someone has to kind of take the reins, and almost steer if there is a family unit in grief? Steer that family through it. That's that's kind of, it's been my experience. I may be completely, it may not be anybody else's. But that has been mine. And I have owned it. 

So for you, Michelle, I did want to, I know you talked a little bit about with me earlier about losing your mom. So I do not want to skip over that. You said that was also very difficult death for you. Sid thar, sid she pass before or after Glen?

Michelle Ann Collins  42:35  
Before. She died in 2007? 

Vonne Solis  42:39  
And so is there anything again, even though we're sort of more focused on suicide here today, but knowing and respecting that was a difficult loss for you, is there anything you want to share with the audience about about losing a parent or maybe somebody else. Whatever that however, that impacted you, and what you've, the lessons you've learned from that, that you want to share?

Michelle Ann Collins  43:00  
Well some of the lesson is similar in that when my mom died, I was very, very sick because I hadn't been taking care of myself. I'd only been focusing on her and my anticipatory grief, which actually started three and a half years before she died. She was diagnosed with an aggressive form of leukemia. And the three and a half years were full of barbaric treatment. Yeah, I mean, I bless the doctors for trying to save her life. But it was it was a really, really rough few years. And leading up to that time before her diagnosis, when she was diagnosed, my kids were one, four, and seven. And I relied heavily on her presence in my life. We were, we were every day, several times a day on the phone. Dinner together several times a week. You know, we were really, really close. And she was helping me so much get through this early motherhood. Which was incredibly difficult and demanding. And then all of a sudden, I had two more people to take care of, because my mom was sick. And my dad was also in, you know, grief from my mom being sick. And so it really turned my life upside down. And I did learn a lot. The three and a half years were, I didn't learn a lot during that time except some of the lessons you and I were talking about. Like I remember a really good friend of mine had not reached out or you know, a lot of people are offering, "can I drive your kids here if you're" because I was over taking care of my mom a lot. So 

Vonne Solis  44:37  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  44:37  
I was getting a lot of help with childcare. And one of my friends stopped me in the hallway one day at pre-school and she put her hand on my shoulder and looked me in the eye and she said, I know I haven't been around much Michelle, but it really upsets me to see you cry. 

Vonne Solis  44:55  
Oh wow. Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  44:56  
So in this moment, I learned that was my one of my first lessons of people who should be. Who I feel should be supporting me, can't.

Vonne Solis  45:07  
Right.

Michelle Ann Collins  45:09  
That lesson, you know, at the time of my mother's death, I was just sure I would never go through anything so hard. You know, any, nothing that happens in my life going forward, would ever be this painful. And then of course, you know, I go through a divorce, and then I remarry, and then he dies by suicide. So my mom's death did open my eyes to the possibilities of people not being able to support who you feel should be supportive. So I had a little lesson in that. And, and that I believe, helped me a little bit after Glen died. Just knowing so it wasn't as shocking. 

Vonne Solis  45:50  
Yeah. Yeah. It's you're, you're saying something so important. And so just me thinking back to our experience in 2005, and up to really kind of 2009 when I actually was able to go back to work. And I'm not going to talk about that at all right here, obviously. But the more I, the stronger I got, and the more I had to get back out there in living for a bunch of different reasons, but obviously, earn some money. Pay the mortgage. That kind of stuff. You know, the more empowered I kind of felt. The more I kind of started to make decisions and stuff like that. But, you know, so but not talking about that today, what you're talking about and anticipatory grief is a real thing.

Michelle Ann Collins  46:40  
Just learning about anticipatory grief, I think it helps people understand. 

Vonne Solis  46:47  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  46:47  
Because you feel guilty and you feel all kinds of feelings. Like I wish they were already dead because they're in so much pain. Well, how horrifying Is it for me to wish that? You know, people go into a shame spiral because they felt like they wished their loved one was just out of pain, but that's wishing them dead. And, you know, all of these feelings are natural parts of anticipatory grief. And if we can educate people about that, and because feeling shame doesn't do anyone any good. Feeling guilt? That doesn't help your loved one feel supported when they're going through whatever illness is taking their life. It doesn't help you get through your grieving process. 

Vonne Solis  47:25  
The problem with that Michelle, is it's it's really, really difficult to pin down what you're feeling number one. And I started a few months ago using an emotion wheel. Absolutely amazing. And I also started working with a life wheel. So I'm working with the two at the same time, because we'll always have triggers. So I mentioned to you before the podcast, the summer was a little difficult. For me, it was my daughter's 18th anniversary. I've also lost both my parents. Her biological father. His sister. You know, there's just been numerous deaths. And so I still, when when something sets me off, or I'm just off, you know, out of balance. But mostly it's if something has sent me off, I will go to the if it's if it's significant enough, I will use the emotion wheel and narrow down in that pie chart that gets bigger and bigger and bigger and go, What exactly am I feeling? Once you know what you're feeling people? Then you get to decide how long you want to really hang on to it. And you know, it might be something that can be dispensed with in minutes, or a day or two. 

But understanding the piece - what I'm trying to say here is really understanding what we are feeling. What is triggering us, helps us let it go. Because we can talk and we're not going to but we could sit and talk forever about shame and guilt and regret. But people just kind of pay lip service to it. Yeah, yeah yeah. When my daughter died and I went down and trained as an Angel Therapy Practitioner, I certified with Doreen Virtue at the time. And there were about 400 of us there. So people, we all did readings for each other and stuff. But I had a couple of readings and someone you know who was already in the in the practicing, said to me, she was so wonderful. And she said, you know your daughter wants you to give up the shame. What shame? I don't feel ashamed. Because that's kind of a dirty word. Shame is associated with a lot of stuff that we're not talking about today. But almost all suicides trigger shame in us so I've read. 

And so we push it away because even if you want to take the emotion of anger, or blame or any of these tough, nasty emotions. Revenge, you know. Gotta get that court case and get em! You know, all that. Well, none of us feel proud to be feeling these things. So that is another reason we don't talk about it. Because it's very, very, even filled with hate. We don't want to admit even to ourselves that these feelings and emotions. Emotions, the feelings that accompany the emotions. The physical response. How you're acting out, right? That this could exist within us. But guess what? It does. So you know what I learned years ago, honor it, respect it, and hey, if I want to get mad, I'm gonna own it. I'm gonna be mad. I'm gonna let that energy out. And then I'm gonna go, okay, maybe that wasn't my best behavior. But I needed to get it out.

Michelle Ann Collins  50:41  
I mean, you just have to release the anger in a way that isn't destructive.

Vonne Solis  50:45  
Right. And I'm talking about just things that, you know, if you're living with someone, they're going to annoy you. There's going to be some conflict. When you're, again with your family and learning these signs and triggers. Knowing who doesn't like conflict. Okay, but we need to talk about it but then you need to state it in a different way. Being sensitive to how we're all responding to things and what the same triggers might be, when we can't necessarily be the sounding board for each other? You know, it's, it's, you just have to learn and gauge, the longer you're in this experience, where you're safe spaces are. Who you can talk with about it. And if you want the honest truth? In mine as a parent? My safest space is talking to other bereaved parents. It's not my family. Not my family.

Michelle Ann Collins  51:37  
No. 

Vonne Solis  51:38  
Okay, so we've covered so much here and including the anticipatory grief piece. Which thank you for sharing that. That is an episode all on its own for sure. But it plays into we've talked a lot about support. Lack of it, and and, and acknowledging the support that is out there. And I do want to talk to you a little bit about Camp Widow. Which is for spouses, but if you could just explain, you know a little bit about what this is. How it helped you. And I know it is located in a few different areas in the states and somewhere in Canada. So whatever you want to share about it.

Michelle Ann Collins  52:18  
And Australia.

Vonne Solis  52:19  
Oh, and Australia. How amazing. So people, like they could go to the website, maybe for camp widow and find out if there's a location near them. But let's talk about that because that's an amazing resource. Whoa.

Michelle Ann Collins  52:31  
So Camp Widow is put on several times a year, all over the country and the world by an organization called Soaring Spirits, which was started by a young widow who lost her husband suddenly. Another Michelle. And she she realized the lack of support for widows, especially young widows.

Vonne Solis  52:56  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  52:57  
And this organization, Soaring Spirits has grown into a global group that can offer support for any widowed people. And that means any widowed people. So you don't have to have been married. You don't have to have been together long. And maybe you realize ten years after your loved one died, that you haven't grieved them or you don't know how or you want a grieving community. And so several times a year, several hundred people get together at Camp Widow and all of the presenters, the speakers which I've been a speaker, one time there last July, are volunteers. We volunteer our time and give a presentation. I also taught yoga to the kids, which was fun and the grown ups. I guess I taught a couple yogas, but 

Vonne Solis  52:57  
Nice. 

Michelle Ann Collins  52:57  
And so it's just this really incredible three day experience where there's tons and tons and tons of information. Speakers you can pick. Different, like, you know, tracks depending on how long ago your loss was or just depending on all these different things. And so you can really meet and then there's a meeting time with groups of people that have similar loss. 

Vonne Solis  54:18  
Oh.

Michelle Ann Collins  54:19  
And if you are a widowed person it is even if you're re-partnered, which is another thing that I think is so underserved. You're re-partnered, but you're never gonna stop grieving your prior relationship because you still love the person. As long as you love them, you're gonna grieve them. And the love lives forever. So there's a spot for that. People actually bring their new partners. And the re-part the partners get to get together and say, how the heck do we stay in our you know, promote our beautiful, lovely relationship and help our partner grieve their previous relationship?  So it's and there's tons of information on their website. I think it's soaringspirits.org. 

Vonne Solis  55:06  
Okay.

Michelle Ann Collins  55:07  
And there's there's groups on there that you can join. And so it's not just Camp Widow. They're

Vonne Solis  55:12  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  55:13  
They're starting to create pockets to go to hospitals and hospices and things like that with information for the newly bereaved. And it's a wonderful experience. Talk about like the opposite of disenfranchised. Everybody there gets it. Everybody there feels and understands what you're going through.

Vonne Solis  55:37  
Yeah. The concept is just fabulous. And I'm so glad you found that because it did help you right?

Michelle Ann Collins  55:44  
Very much. I made a lot of connections. You know, people that I'm in touch with. And I will go back when I get a chance. 

Vonne Solis  55:50  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  55:51  
Maybe as a presenter. Maybe just as an attendee. And it is the most wonderful energy. By the, by the time I mean, even in the first few hours you're there, you just feel so good connected to the group.

Vonne Solis  56:05  
I know. I'm a big proponent, and I'm sure you are of community. It can be very hard to reach out people, especially in newer grief. I understand it. But I reached out right away and had a community and I swear, they also saved my life. 

We are at the top of the hour Michelle. I want to get to your resources to end up with but one thing I'd just like to talk about just for a minute is before that is what is it in your mind? We've talked a lot about the difficulties of being, you know, a spouse, and certainly secondary losses. But is there one or two things that you want to leave the audience with that people just don't get about spousal loss? Whether it's related to suicide or spousal loss in general? 

Michelle Ann Collins  56:55  
Well, I think I touched on some of the pain points. That's losing your identity. Losing your roommate in most cases, and 

Vonne Solis  57:04  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  57:05  
the person you share your, your joys with and your bills with. And maybe losing a big chunk of your family. And so I think that the when you're ready as as a bereaved, widowed person, the thing that can help the most is doing some introspection as to who you are, and how you want your life to go. Because you do have to make those decisions without a partner. And some people re-partner really quickly. But, you know, I, I've been alone now, seven and a half years. I have not re-partnered. Not by choice. I just haven't found a person that that I feel is the right partner. 

Vonne Solis  57:48  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  57:48  
So I have really had to make a life of my choosing on my own. And there can be blessings there. As much as I would have preferred Glen didn't die, creating my own life is, it's a very rewarding process. And the other thing I'd really, really like to emphasize is for people to just be kind to yourself. You know, we've talked a lot about shame and guilt, and 

Vonne Solis  58:17  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  58:18  
and all of these things. And, you know, if you can just choose a way to be kind to yourself and not beat yourself up? Your healing journey will go better.

Vonne Solis  58:30  
Thank you for mentioning that because with the emotion wheel, it's really interesting. So at the center of it, I think there's seven emotions, right? And while there are a number of negative ones, we need to remember, well, it doesn't appear there are equal number of positive ones. I've talked to therapists about this. Where all the positive emotions?Anyway, dig down. And it it can be a wonderful tool as well. And there's a bunch of free ones online. So you just search emotion wheel. And I am actually starting to talk a lot more about this because it helps us at least understand how we are feeling and how we want to feel. So you can go and look, you know, and, and, you know sort of intend for yourself, I would like to experience more joy. Okay, well, what does joy actually mean? What would you feel when you experience joy? And you know, look down in that pie, and create little things in your life that will help you feel that way. And I just did an interview with someone and one of the things she does and I'm going to be sharing it a lot because it's so amazing, is find at least one thing that brought you joy today. And that is very different from what do you feel grateful for? Joy, it actually puts a, an a connection to, oh, that made me light up. Or oh, I feel so joyful because I could taste my tea. You know?

Michelle Ann Collins  59:58  
Science is proving that we can rewire our brains to be more open to joy by by using that exact practice. And so we can actually make our lives more joyful. And it's kind of uncomfortable to talk to widowed people or bereaved people about joy, but it is a really important part of the healing process.

Vonne Solis  1:00:21  
Alright. So listen, ou've got a beautiful background there, and you've got your books set up. For my, for my YouTube audience, you're going to be able to see that. Beautifully illustrated for the listening audience.s Michelle, can you just tell us what the names of your books are? And obviously, we're gonna have a link to your website so people can find your resources, the books included. Where to purchase them on your website. And, and then tell us a little bit about the services you offer.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:00:53  
Sure, thanks. So the books are Surviving Spouse or Partner Suicide Loss, A Mindful Guide for Your Journey Through Grief. That's the first one. And the reason it's mindful guide is because my take on everything is through the lens of my using mindfulness to suffer less. Mindfulness practices. So and then the second book Supporting a Survivor of Spouse or Partner Suicide Loss, A Mindful Guide for Co-journeying through Grief. And that book had to be set out. I actually released them on the same day, January of 2023. 

Vonne Solis  1:01:35  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:01:35  
Because I felt like the supporters, you know, like you and I have already talked about so much in this hour. People don't know what to do or how to help someone. 

Vonne Solis  1:01:45  
Yeah

Michelle Ann Collins  1:01:45  
Who've lost a partner to suicide. 

Vonne Solis  1:01:47  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:01:48  
And so it's a very specific guide. It has much of the same information as the first book, but so that ideally, you read it together with your friend who lost their your friend or loved one who lost their spouse or partner. But it can really educate people to what to say what not to say. You know, that whole, oh, you're young. You'll re-partner. Oh, you know, Ach! 

Vonne Solis  1:02:12  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  1:02:12  
Right? You know?

Vonne Solis  1:02:14  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:02:15  
It's all of those things. What, what do you say? Well this book will help you know what to say and what to do. And it's actually sold better than the survivor book.

Vonne Solis  1:02:27  
Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. So those are amazing resources. And then what services are you providing Michelle?

Michelle Ann Collins  1:02:36  
Well, I work with bereaved people, of course, suffering grief. But I also, so as a grief coach and a wellness coach, I also end up with working with a lot of people who are suffering from not just grief, but anxiety. Of course, a lot of grief comes with anxiety. And then I'm also a yoga therapist. So I do this really holistic, comprehensive practice to help people learn mindfulness practices, health practices, self-love practices, self-compassion, meditation. All these things to help improve their entire life. So it's not just focused on grief, although that is a specialty. And I am, you know, I'm very deep into the grief with my clients. 

Vonne Solis  1:03:25  
Yeah. 

Michelle Ann Collins  1:03:26  
But I'm able to, and I also have a neuroscience background. So I use modern science and ancient wisdom to help each and I really, I work with groups and sometimes corporate, but the individual one to one practices, you know? I really love to do that, because I can tailor it exactly toward each person. And I have some courses out on my website that are wonderful. Highly recommend. Very affordable courses that are just recording. And I also work with corporate. So I'll work with HR to develop bereavement programs. Because when someone comes back, oftentimes bereavement is three days. 

Vonne Solis  1:04:14  
I know.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:04:15  
And people don't know what to do. The employees don't know what to do. I mean, they're showing up late to meetings. They're crying in the bathroom. You know all these things. So if we have a program in place for employees to understand not just the employee who's coming back, but for all of their co-workers to understand what to expect. And that yeah, this person is not going to be on their game for a while. 

Vonne Solis  1:04:39  
Yeah.

Michelle Ann Collins  1:04:39  
And you may need to pick up the slack. But what they've been through is really, really hard.

Vonne Solis  1:04:45  
Yeah, yeah. No, we need, I'm in Canada, but we need better policies. We need better, you know, education for employers, both government private. And I had to uh, go, I was working for the federal government. And it was actually a very interesting experience because the employer I ended up with, you know, they got me. And I put in work accommodations on a yearly basis, until I actually ended up on a disability. And they worked with me. And then that disability led to my retirement. And it was very, very difficult. And we don't have time in this episode to talk about any of that. But that was such an empowering experience for me, having to teach them with the help of a therapist, right? To give me the courage and understand what I needed to educate them, and deal with HR and you know, and deal with the union and know my rights, and, and be empow, feel empowered enough to ask for them. And it was really interesting. And I wouldn't want to have to go through it again. And I'm, I don't know, the policies of the States and stuff like that, and private companies, but the government was very, very, very good. And I had a good job a really good job. And they accommodated me.

And, you know, what I want to stress here is when we end up working with limitations? So my limitations, basically, my mental and I had a lot of illness, chronic illness, right? And but I was a top notch, you know, employee And so I could still produce. Perform and produce at a record level that could accommodate my sick leave when I needed to be off. And you know, so I was that A-plus personality that would take myself and then of course, the body breaks down, when you've had enough. And your way, however, your body's going to tell you, you can't function at that speed anymore or whatever. You're going to feel it and you're going to know it.

And so I don't think any of us really kind of get away from what the mental and emotional stresses we live with does on the physical body. It's a lot for people. So we don't have time to talk about that today. But I'm just saying the more you are aware that you can and likely are being impacted by your grief that you might otherwise say, oh, is stress or it's this bug or it's that or yeah. Grief produces lots and lots and lots of effects mental, emotional, physically, and spiritually. So you have amazing resources Michelle. It has been an absolute delight speaking with you today. Thank you very much for sharing your experience. Your story. Your resources. All you do to help the grieving. It's amazing. Is there any last thoughts that you have?

Michelle Ann Collins  1:07:52  
I guess I would just say to your audience, if you have not found a community in which to grieve that feels supportive, keep looking. You can send me an email. I'll help you out. Go to grief.com has 25 different small groups for different bereaved different types of death and different ages and including a suicide group. Spouse loss, child loss, fentanyl poisoning. I mean, so many.

Vonne Solis  1:08:25  
Oh wow. 

Michelle Ann Collins  1:08:25  
You can join this group called Tender Hearts and so there is a community out there. Keep looking until you find a way that you feel supported.

Vonne Solis  1:08:35  
Yeah. And your website inhabitjoy.com?

Michelle Ann Collins  1:08:40  
Yes. 

Vonne Solis  1:08:41  
Okay. So we'll have a link to that inhabit joy.com to get in touch with Michelle for as she said, a wealth of resources and in any way that she could help you on an individual or, you know, maybe business corporate level. 

Michelle Ann Collins  1:08:59  
So, thanks again Michelle. It's been absolutely amazing having you. Thanks. 

Thank you for having me.