Ep. 73 How to Find Happiness in Grief

Twice widowed, Emily Thiroux Threatt is an Author, Podcast Host, Speaker, and Facilitator of the Grief and Happiness Alliance. She is the author of "Loving and Living Your Way Through Grief" and her latest book, "The Grief and Happiness Handbook". 

Emily founded the Grief and Happiness Alliance and hosts the Grief and Happiness Podcast to support the grieving, focused on happiness. She is also the creator of The Grief and Happiness Cards, where each of the 52 cards encourages and helps you to find inner peace, love and harmony after loss.

I read and loved Emily’s first book. Listening to her story, this episode offers an amazing and inspiring conversation to help those who are newly or unexpectedly widowed, but really, anyone bereaved find their way back to happiness!

TIMESTAMP:
Welcome. (0:00)
Grief, loss, and finding purpose after tragedy. (1:50)
Grief support for spousal loss. (6:10)
Grief, healing, and self-care. (10:24)
Grief, identity loss, and healing after multiple significant losses. (16:59)
Grief, regret, and living in the moment. (25:57)
Self-love and forgiveness to overcome self-judgment. (30:30)
Smiling, grief, and healing. (34:40)
Coping strategies in grief. (40:29)
Manifesting desires and personal growth. (45:38)
Finding joy and purpose after loss. (52:09)
Grief and connection. (56:53)
Grief and happiness. (1:02:39)
Closing. (1:05:35)

Connect with Emily:
https://www.griefandhappiness.com/
https://lovingandlivingyourwaythroughgrief.com/
https://lovingandlivingyourwaythroughgrief.com/podcast/

Connect with Vonne:
https://www.vonnesolis.com

Subscribe to the podcast! Share your favourite episodes! Connect with Vonne on LinkedIn and Facebook.

Transcript

Emily Thiroux Threatt  0:00  
Welcome to another episode of Grief Talk. Everything you want to know about grief and more. I'm your host, Vonne Solis. As an author, mentor, and bereaved mom since 2005, through guest interviews and coaching, here's where you'll always get great content that is inspiring and practical to help you heal after loss. 

Vonne Solis  0:21  
Today's guest is Emily Thiroux Threatt. She is the author of the book Loving and Living Your Way Through Grief, and founded the Grief and Happiness Alliance. She also hosts the Grief and Happiness podcast designed to comfort and support those dealing with grief and loss focusing on happiness. Her latest book is the Grief and Happiness Handbook and Emily is the creator and photographer of the Grief and Happiness cards. Each of the 52 cards designed to encourage you to find inner peace, love, and harmony. 

Vonne Solis  0:53  
Welcome to my podcast. I'm very excited that you and I have connected and we're going to have this discussion today. I've already introduced you as an author of your two books and we're going to get into talking you know a lot about what you talk about. I read your last book. Well your your first book, Loving and Living Your Way Through Grief. And I just loved it. Loved it. As a bereaved mom, I could basically apply everything that you were talking about still in, you know the context of of losing a child. And I know you have come from losing two spouses. So I want to just jump right into it, Emily, and if you could share a little bit about your losses, and in particular, how they led you to do the work that you are doing today, which is so important. So I'm going to turn it right over to you and let's talk about that.

Vonne Solis  1:50  
As you said, I've had two husbands die. And I was married to Jacques for 22 years. And I was with Ron for 10 years. Married for six of that. Ironically, they both died of the same thing. I had no idea that the second one was going to have the same thing that the first one had when we got married. So that was, that was an interesting journey as far as that went. 

Vonne Solis  2:16  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  2:16  
But when my husband Ron, who was the most recent to die, we lived in California. And he was in he was knowing that he was on his way out, so to speak. And he had lived in Maui a long time before I knew him. And we had come here several times. We came on our honeymoon and we kept visiting people. And Maui is a beautiful island. And there aren't that many people that actually live on the island. There's tons of tourists all the time. But the residents, there aren't so many of. And so when you run into people in local places, generally you're going to know someone. And it was kind of, it felt comfortable when we moved over here. And then got to stay here two years before he transitioned from here. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  3:10  
And so when when he wasn't, when he was gone, it was like, Okay, now now what? 

Vonne Solis  3:19  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  3:19  
I'm in a new place. I don't know that many people. I, all the things that I had done in my life were complete, so to speak. You know, I was it kind of saying, Okay, what do I do now? And so I'm a writer. I taught writing for years at the university. And I thought, I'm just gonna write about it. Not for anybody else to read. Just for me to explore my thoughts and my feeling and what was going on. And I discovered that what I needed was to find my purpose now, because it obviously had changed. And through much writing and much meditation, I ended up coming up with that my purpose is to provide comfort, support, love and happiness to people who are dealing with grief. And that's that's led me on this journey and how I actually got to write the books. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  4:16  
About oh seven months, I think it was after Ron died, a very dear friend of his on the mainland, died suddenly. And he was a lot younger than we were. We were family friends. Lived close to each other, in Ventura, where we lived. And he just died on his way home from work one night and no warning. And I was so concerned for his wife because she was not at a point in her life where she had even considered. You know, that that was something that was way in the future. 

Vonne Solis  4:47  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  4:47  
And all of a sudden, she was dealing with it. And I knew that I if I was still down the street from her, I would have been spending a lot of time with her. So I thought what can I do to support her? And I decided that I would write her every week for that first year. So that would be 52 different things that I would write and mail to her. Not not send by email, but actual mail. So I made little cards. I put a picture of something that I had taken on Hawaii of the, all the beautiful things here in Maui. So each one had a different picture on the front. I just printed them off my computer. And each one said something different inside that was there to provide comfort and support to her in some way. And each one was different. And I decided, since I committed to myself to do that, that I better figure out what I was going to write about 52 times before I got started. And so I made a list. And I was very satisfied with this list of 52 things. And I looked at it. And as a writer, I said this is an outline. And I could write a book. 

Vonne Solis  5:54  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  5:55  
So 52 chapters ended up being way too much for one book. So now I have two books with 26 chapters apiece in them and I've gone on to actually publish those cards. They just came out so that anybody can have access to them. 

Vonne Solis  6:09  
Yeah, that's so cool. As a writer, myself, I appreciate it. I've written three books, and I completely understand the dedication. And what it takes to, you know, not only have your content stay on track, and be committed and see it through. So very nice. And I love the card idea. You can purchase them like now as a deck of cards, right?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  6:29  
Yes.

Vonne Solis  6:29  
The Grief and Happiness cards, they're beautiful. I mean, beautifully illustrated. Did you illustrate them yourself or did you have an illustrator?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  6:37  
I had someone do the design for the side where the writing is so that around the edges, it's got, well, why anti flowers and a little dainty foil. And then on the other side, each one has a different picture that I, I just love the pictures all the things. I'm always seeing something beautiful here and I've got thousands of pictures. So.

Vonne Solis  7:00  
Yeah, so it's expressing you and how you see life. I really appreciate. And I'm going to focus today on for the audience, basically, spousal loss. And I know there is a huge interest. As I read your book, you know, there's going to be different things. Like when we lose a child that, you know, we're not going to either be able to apply to, you know how you have rebuilt and are healing. But they're certainly worth noting. And I'm 18 years into this. So I could really appreciate what you were saying, and go yep! Because I lost all of my identity when I lost my daughter and many parents do when they lose a child. And she was my only daughter and I have a son, but it still rips that identity away.

Vonne Solis  7:45  
And so I'm always thinking and very appreciative of people who are bereaved from any type of loss, because we can all learn from different types of grief we we go through because that's what makes a community. We don't necessarily want to go in a support group and I couldn't go into support group for spousal loss. Just like other people who haven't lost a child won't come into a support group for child loss. But nevertheless, in what you've written in your book, when we get to a point, at whatever point that is. And I love what you say, and I, as I said, I agree with everything you say in your book. It really hit home. It touched home for me. And I love how you talk about when you're ready. Gentle steps, when you're ready, if you get there. 

Vonne Solis  8:30  
I'm paraphrasing, but you know what I mean? Because it's so important when we learn from people. And when I became bereaved in 2005, there wasn't a lot, you know, grief books. There might be more today, but specifically what I wanted in child loss, suicide and that sort of thing. And today, you know, there's still not enough resources in general. Do you find that for spousal loss? I'm just curious, before we go to my next piece of this. Do you find that there is enough support around for spousal loss?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  9:00  
I do believe there's enough because there's so many different kinds of support and different ways that you can get the loss. Then, after my last husband died, I started reading in addition to writing. I wanted to read things about grief and see what would help me. And I found, even if the descriptions of the books sounded like it was something else, they all kind of boiled down to memoirs. Now, I believe in writing memoirs about grief because that really can help you process things and go through it. So I believe in writing memoirs. I think that's a very powerful way to create some healing and some processing through things. So I believe in that. But that wasn't helping me because I already had my memories. It wasn't that I needed to have someone else's memories. I wanted more of a "Here do this or try this or think about this" sort of thing. And I wasn't finding that any place and kind of what led me to do this. I've discovered that there are things out there now. But they had different philosophies than I do. Like there's one very popular thing that I won't mention the name of because I don't want it to sound like I'm criticizing anyone particularly. 

Vonne Solis  10:24  
No, no. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  10:25  
But they believe you heal from grief. You get over it.

Vonne Solis  10:29  
Yeah, no, I don't either. No. The language. I've actually, I think you said in your book, I believe this is the first time I've read it. You don't heal grief. You're right. You don't heal grief. You heal to the extent you can yourself in grief. And to the point that you're not really having that experience anymore. And so that is how I I,  listen, I had a problem with that right from the beginning of losing my daughter. And the few books that were there, even grief in general? They did focus on healing from grief. All of them. And so it has been a journey to kind of figure it out. And so you and I are on the same page. It's like we heal to the extent we can. But at the same time, I do honour people, have you met people that just don't like the word healing? Because I sure have.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  11:22  
Oh, yeah. That's because they feel that it's not something to heal from. That you don't need to heal grief. And I always say when people say, Well, how long? How long does it last? How long does grief last? And I say as long as you still love the person. So probably the rest of your life. 

Vonne Solis  11:40  
I know. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  11:40  
I carry carry both my husband's and my heart. And my parents and my sister and all my friends and relatives who have died. They didn't, they didn't leave I don't feel unrelated to them anymore. I don't feel that if we didn't have a really beautiful connection in person that doesn't mean we can't still love them. 

Vonne Solis  12:03  
Yeah, of course. Oh, we do. And I'm the same as you. For years, I sort of struggled a little bit with thinking, Oh, well, maybe my attitude, they you know that, you know, I'll always grieve for my daughter in some way. It may change, but how could I not? That was the question, how could I not? And I felt I'm not saying this is true. But I felt like I was the only one saying this for so many years. And then as I said, You know what I'm so comfortable in in the experience now that I'm okay with that. And I allow those days, but you know, that are harder. But there's so few of them for me because I'm learning having this really beautiful synergistic relationship from spirit with her to my spirit and honouring that. But you know, hey, that takes some getting used to and time to, you know, embrace that if people ever do. Do you believe in that just really quickly in the afterlife?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  13:06  
I really do. And I also believe that everyone has their own belief and whatever works for them is okay. It's not, there's no judgement here. 

Vonne Solis  13:18  
Absolutely. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  13:19  
That's one thing that happens with grief a lot. That people will go oh, well, you're stuck in your grief you know. And no. 

Vonne Solis  13:26  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  13:27  
I'm not stuck in my grief. And I think many people are. 

Vonne Solis  13:30  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  13:31  
We just each deal with it in different ways. 

Vonne Solis  13:33  
Yeah, absolutely. Let's move into the judgment piece. And I'm so happy you wrote about that in your book. And I want to talk about that. It all, all of what we're talking about today is going to build, you know, sort of a picture of allowing people to become their authentic selves. It is a journey. You basically say, Be the person you want to be. Then you will attract people who are the same. And I loved that in your book. I just loved that in your book. What would you say to the person who is more recently bereaved, or even longer, you know, in their grief, but still really struggling about the authentic self piece. That would help them sort of embrace and if not embrace, at least accept their loss? Because I think that is key to becoming to allowing yourself to be authentic in the journey.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  14:33  
Well, the first thing I say to people when they they say, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to go on. I don't know, you know, how do I just accept this? And I always say the first thing I say is take care of yourself. Whatever it is that you need to do to take care of yourself. And as you take care of yourself, then everything else just kind of falls into place. And if you surround yourself with people that go, you're still grieving, then that's going to hurt. So what you do is gravitate toward people who are positive with you and supportive of you. That's good self-care is to be surrounding yourself in a way that you feel held up. You feel comfortable. You you feel as comfortable as you can. Grieving's not a comfortable thing. 

Vonne Solis  15:32  
No.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  15:32  
But you can, you can kind of put it in perspective of, I'm here. I'm here. Now, in this moment, I'm here. And in this moment, I'm a good person. I like who I am. And I do miss whoever it is that isn't there. But you can find ways to support yourself through that. And one of the things that I do I write a lot to help myself. I write in my journal every morning. I facilitate a group on Zoom every week, where we write together about grief. And then we talk about it and learn happiness practices. And the more you do that, the more you can kind of explore what's going on in your heart that doesn't necessarily surface another way. Because it'll come out when you're writing. And when when you write, sometimes, like this week, one day, I was writing to Ron and asking him questions. And the next day, I was writing to Jacques about something that I hadn't really realized even though it's been a long time since he died now. I had realized that I hadn't really dealt with it before, but I could do it by writing. And I addressed it to him. And that helped me write through it. And it was a really good way to practice self-care for me. 

Vonne Solis  16:59  
Can I just ask what years your respective husbands died?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  17:03  
Jacques died in 2006. 

Vonne Solis  17:06  
Okay.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  17:06  
And Ron died in 2017.

Vonne Solis  17:09  
Was that your your plunge into into bereavement with Jacques?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  17:14  
Yeah. I was with him for 22 years before he transitioned. As far as, I had, like, lost a really dear friend, not to death. But he just was went away. And it that was loss? 

Vonne Solis  17:32  
Yes.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  17:33  
And it was it was hard to deal with. And like all the things in my book, you can kind of relate to that kind of loss. 

Vonne Solis  17:40  
Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  17:41  
And each loss you have in any way is different. 

Vonne Solis  17:46  
Oh, for sure.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  17:47  
And by observing its uniqueness, you can see, well, you know, when I had that experience before, in this circumstance, this is what I did. And I don't feel like I need to do that anymore because I kind of worked my way through it. Or I realized that something I really need to work on now to help me with my self-care.

Vonne Solis  18:10  
Yeah. So I lost my daughter in 2005. And then my dad in 2007. Then my mom in 2010. And then her biological father and 2011. Her best friend in 2010. And then you know, so it was a lot. It was a lot in like, five, six years. And the reason I asked that is because some people like I said, they want to know, you know is this pain? Is it going to last? And like you said, it's it's it's so hard when you have like only one really traumatic loss as your first one. And for me, it was my child. So the other losses, I don't think I could really process them because I was so wrapped up, it was still so new for me. I was still trying to figure out, you know what, what I had to go through losing my child. 

Vonne Solis  18:58  
So I was going to say that you had the experience of one loss way before. Eleven years before and then another one. But I'm thinking it had to have been very traumatic given your husbands died from the same thing. I mean, you did handle it very differently, because Ron was very different person than than Jacques right?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  19:23  
Oh absolutely. 

Vonne Solis  19:24  
But I guess what I'm trying to say is all of the experience we end up you know, you know, having that is loss, it gives us an opportunity to learn different things from it. Your book is very, very comforting, to help those that are new, very new to grief. And as I said, maybe even entering a different phase of their grief. Because we change in grief. Would you agree Emily? 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  19:54  
Abolutely. Very much so. And one thing that I say to people now that kind of It shocks them and people go really, is that I'm happier now than I ever have been. You wouldn't think that that would would happen when the grief is so deep and so profound, and and hard at points. 

Vonne Solis  20:15  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  20:15  
You can get to the point where you have things in perspective in a different way than you would have before without the sweetness of the loss. 

Vonne Solis  20:25  
Yeah. So some of what has helped you get to where you are, and I'm so happy for you that you're the happiest you've ever been. I would say the same thing in my life. But you know, I'm still dealing with a few things even 18 years later. And for me part of that, and I don't know if you feel that? I think maybe you did allude to that with identity loss, and rebuilding. And you mentioned in your book, you know, I was a wife. I was a mom. But you had, you really did say I was Jacques' wife, and then and you know, the professor's wife. And then I was Ron's wife. The Minister's wife. And so for you coming out of that, you know, it it seems that you lost your identity as well. You had to find who Emily was without the benefit of that spouse. And is this quite common do you think in spousal loss for a lot of the ones left behind?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  21:23  
I think so. And I, a lot of times, you'll hear people say it's when you're in a couple that, that you're part of each other. That you're one together. And when one of them transitions, it's there's an emptiness that isn't, you know, that person's not there in in person. However, it's it's also a time of incredible growth and getting in touch with yourself in a different way than than you ever have before. And you become, you keep mentioning authentic self. You will become really your authentic self. As, as I'm Emily now. I'm not someone's wife, someone's mother. Sure. I still have my children. 

Vonne Solis  22:18  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  22:19  
If somebody told me after my dad died first, and then my mom died later, and they did died kind of early in my life. And someone after my mom died, said, Well, you're an orphan now. And I said, you could have gone my whole life without telling me that. You know because it put me in a in a different mindset for a while. And I really had to deal with that until I realized, no, I'm still their daughter. You know? I didn't stop being their daughter because they're not physically here in my presence.

Vonne Solis  22:50  
Yeah. But fun fact. When my parents both died, that's what us kids said. You know, like, we're orphaned now. And it was a really weird, and we understood we were adults, and all of that, but it was still we have no parents. That's weird. I don't know, maybe we all do that when we lose our parents. I don't know. But my mom's death was like, super sudden, and, and so wasn't expecting that. And that really was a shock. You know, like, I talked to her in the afternoon and get home from work and get the call. She's gone. And, you know, so what it did for our family, not that we didn't have this already. But it did put into perspective, just how any one of us can go at any time. And so, you know, we don't leave things unsaid. It's a good lesson for anybody and I think you would agree, Emily. Even if you haven't lost anybody, and you happen to be watching this, or listening to this, you know, don't leave things unsaid or undone. That because Ooh, regret. It's a lot, right? 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  24:02  
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Vonne Solis  24:03  
Let's get into judgment for a bit here, because I thought it was so valuable in your book. You talked about the judgment of others, of course, which there's a lot of it in, you talked about it and in, you know, your own situations. There's tons of judgment around child loss. Suicide. So I certainly felt it. Whether it was true or not, if we feel we're being judged, hey, we're being judged, right? In our mind. So, but the, the part I thought that was really important is you know, you can't control what other people think or are gonna say about you. But you certainly can manage what you are going to do in response to it. And I think this is a very, very important lesson early on, in any type of grief. Because when we're vulnerable, and we're weak, right? Everything is out to get us. So our perspective is hugely important in the judgment piece. 

Vonne Solis  25:01  
But in the one, in talking about judgment of ourselves, if you want to share a few things that you have learned, which are very, very important. Again, in your book, you talk about how you felt you shouldn't love again. You shouldn't get married again. You know, you were Jacques' wife, and and all these things. And I'm I'm thinking that's probably quite common for certainly early spousal loss. But the other judgments that we carry, you know? The would have, could have, should have's. What would you like to say to the audience about well, first of all, recognizing that they are in major self-judgement and then what they could do to, I'm not going to say get rid of it, because that's not going to happen. But at least, you know, calm the language. The self-talk down, and begin to change that narrative about yourself?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  25:57  
With me, I, I had wonderful relationships with with both my husbands. And we, in each relationship, we talked a lot. And I found that, Jacques was a philosophy professor, so

Vonne Solis  26:13  
Nice. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  26:14  
we had conversations. He also specialized in bioethics and taught the course that nurses had to take on dealing with death and dying. That ended up being like the only class he taught in his last few years, because so many people needed to take it to get through the program. And so we had lots of lots of talks. But I discovered after he was gone that we were talking a lot, in, maybe in generalities. And we didn't get down to what we, I would really like to have communicated with him about. And so with Ron when when he came along, I said, I am not going to do this again where I get to the end and say, Oh, I wish I would have said that or I wish we would have done this or I decided I wasn't going to live that way. And I didn't. And it was it was so different.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  27:19  
When Ron was sick, I wasn't constantly being afraid of when is he going to die and what's gonna you know, that was happening a lot with Jacques. And both of them ended up having to be in the hospital many times in those last two years of their lives. 

Vonne Solis  27:38  
Wow.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  27:38  
And with I was always so uptight or almost panicky about Jacques when he would be going through those experiences. And with Ron, we so lived in the moment. And we so said everything that we needed to say that I didn't feel that way. And right up until the end, I was really surprised that I I cried as hard as I did when he died because I thought I've been dealing with this all along. I am fine with it. I'm you know, you know it's coming. 

Vonne Solis  28:18  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  28:18  
And and I did much better. But it was it was so wonderful to learn that one lesson that was most profound with being with Ron was to learn to actually how to live in the moment and do it. To actively do it all the time. And that has made such a huge difference in my life. Things that to me I used to worry about or I thought were really important aren't anymore, because at this moment it doesn't matter.

Vonne Solis  28:49  
Keeping this in the context of judgment, though, like I'm thinking as you're talking, couple of things. When you can stay, for early grievers, tell me what you think about this, Emily. When you naturally blame yourself for things that you didn't say. Could have said differently. Ended on a bad note. Like we all have something, I'm sure, that we feel regretful about. Blame ourselves for and it can become a pattern of really bad self-talk for a really long time. And that's where we get into this piece of judgment and so on and so forth. And you can't cover everything. You know, I know you said in in also that in your book that you know you'd stayed very much in the present with Ron, and I get it and that's wonderful. But then there were things about his past that you didn't know and couldn't pass on. So that piece was missing for you. You know, so we're never gonna get it all together about another person. But the thing about the judgment is staying in the moment. I'm wondering if even if that is just something for people in earlier grief or struggling in their grief, if they could just really live today? You can't change the past. And, you know, you, you don't know what is happening tomorrow. Listen, life can change on a dime. Good things and bad things, right? But if today it's like, Do you have any thing to be mad at yourself for? Or, you know, it's like letting go of all that. What would you say to them? Do you think presence can help them let go of self-judgment and what else?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  30:41  
With judgment, I learned, and in what what made all the difference to me was I learned to not judge myself anymore. And when I could release judgment of myself, then I could release judgment of other people. 

Vonne Solis  30:59  
Right.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  30:59  
And I find now that my, my focus is on giving and receiving unconditional love. And that includes to myself. 

Vonne Solis  31:11  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  31:12  
And, and not judging if, if I would have done something differently, or I could have done this better, or why do I do that? Or why do I not exercise enough? Whatever it is. What what are you judging yourself for? Recognize that and that's something you can write about. Just, you know, get out your journal and explore what you're judging yourself about. And when you see what it is, a lot of times I know with me, I said, I can't believe I'm judging myself for that, because that's not important. 

Vonne Solis  31:42  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  31:43  
But I had been. So when when you can get to the point where you release judgment, you'll also be releasing fear because fear is directly related to judgment. And a lot of philosophers and different people have have said that there are only two real emotions in life. And that is love and fear.

Vonne Solis  32:06  
 I was just going to say that.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  32:08  
If you can release that fear, then you can live in love. And that love is what is allowing me to be happier now than I ever have been.

Vonne Solis  32:18  
So for me, it was the self-forgiveness, and the self-love, you know, for that I could really feel for me, which occurred as I was writing my last book. Which was a letter to my daughter. It was a letter to my daughter just like you. You know, you're writing and anyways writing her because I found that was the only way I could really pour out my feelings. They were too hard to, you know, and this was like 13 years into the grief. And that turned into my my last book. But you know, it, it was unapologetic. This is what I'm struggling with. And then once you know what you're struggling with, and what you're judging yourself so harshly with, that softening piece of just whether it is holding, you know, a picture of yourself as a baby. Something where you have not been touched yet, by life, as a child. You're bubbliest happiest moment. If you've got a photo of that. Memory of that, and care for yourself because deep within we are still that person. And you know, it took a therapist to tell me, Boy, are you ever heard on yourself. I'm like what? I am? 

Vonne Solis  33:32  
And you know, so I really encourage people also to look in the mirror, and practice saying, I love you and name yourself. Just name yourself. Because the minute you name yourself looking in the mirror, you know, I love you your name, you are really not objectifying it. Really it's becoming subjective. It's becoming very intimate and very personal. And it's very hard to look at yourself in the mirror when you're looking your worst in grief, but I used to do it. In my very earliest days and weeks, I would look at myself in the mirror because I didn't know who I was anymore. I didn't recognize myself. And it's a good way to kind of also build a relationship with yourself where you are in the moment. So all of that just to say, I think we're both saying Emily, that self-love, which can come through forgiveness of your actions and what you did or didn't do, is a key piece in stopping the self-punishing judgments. Would you say?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  34:40  
Absolutely. You've got it right on there. 

Vonne Solis  34:43  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  34:43  
I was just thinking as you were saying that that Ron would get on me sometimes about my my resting face. I usually, it wasn't exactly a frown but it wasn't a smile. And I just I didn't think of that. And I didn't realize that I really hardly ever smiled. And he suggested, you know, looking at myself in the mirror, and I'd look and I go, it just doesn't look very good without a smile. But now now that I, I am really, truly having a happy life, I smile naturally and it feels really good. When I first started, I had to concentrate on it. I had to really realize I'm not smiling and do a, Can I smile right now? Do I feel like smiling? And what do I need to do feel like smiling if I don't? And my muscles in my face when I first started smiling it was like it hurt.

Vonne Solis  35:42  
I think the natural resting face is not you know, one, actually, I just had a guest on my show and she works in functional medicine. And we were talking about the neutral face and how it can be very dangerous and very scary. Because most of us are so disconnected from our emotions, or we are suppressing them that the face becomes you can't really read it. And then and then we were talking about the danger of that. But in terms of and listen, none of us go around smiling. But um, I'm like you. So I work to have my face just relaxed. You know, I don't certainly go around all day when I'm here just you know, smiling, but I do smile a lot. 

Vonne Solis  36:24  
And actually, here's something for you grievers if you're in early grief and something I forced myself to do, when I lost Janaya literally within, oh, probably two, three weeks. And I didn't live in the city. But when we would go into the city for various things we had to go into in you know, I would smile. I forced myself to smile at people when I was walking on the sidewalk. And, um because I think that was my natural disposition. And they smiled back. And the exchange between us, I swear was like a little jolt of sunshine. And I swear for me that, I was always committed to a healing journey right from the beginning. So that was not a difficulty for me to commit to. But it felt good for just a second. So if you can't smile for yourself, smile at someone else - a stranger because we all need that and it just changes your face. And then also I'm going to just say, you know, throw in, just practice relaxing. Like you were saying it hurt because you weren't using your smiling muscles right? Well just check your face and see how stressed or strained it is. All of that helps in the acceptance of oneself. And our circumstances that we cannot change the past. So for today, rest and be present with who you are. Even if you don't like who you are. Right, Emily? One day you will. One day you will right?

Vonne Solis  37:59  
Let's talk about rebuilding. You talk about it in your chapter being social. And as I mentioned to you earlier, I talk about it, sort of I thought about it in terms of like rebuilding. It doesn't matter how you you frame it. But here's what I loved and I want, wanted you to talk a little bit about for the audience. You asked yourself, what can I do? What would I like to do? What would I really love to do? And how would I like to experience that? Geez! And that was so powerful for me even today 18 years later. So what would you like to say about that?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  38:35  
I write that on a post it note and put it on your bathroom mirror someplace where you can, yeah, there you go.

Vonne Solis  38:42  
Just showed a post it note audience listening. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  38:45  
Yeah. Because that that's living consciously, mindfully, you know? Because you're, you're really saying what you want to do. And I think of my my aunt. I loved my wife loved all my aunts. But Aunt Mona was a really special person to me. And she was in a terrible car accident where her young grandson, who had just gotten his driver's license was driving her and her husband to a big family gathering. And they were excited about giving him that opportunity to drive and they had a head on collision and her husband was killed and she almost was. She had very severe injuries. 

Vonne Solis  39:23  
Wow.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  39:25  
She was able to stay positive. 

Vonne Solis  39:29  
Wow. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  39:30  
And she was such an example to me. I went to see her one time and it how long ago this was she had a cassette. A DVD of the movie Patch Adams. And I noticed that when I went to visit her was it was lying on her bed with her and I said Oh, you like that movie? And she goes I'll watch it all the time. She said when whenever I need to be uplifted, I just put it in my machine. And and I can smile and I can laugh and I can enjoy. And the more that I smile and laugh and enjoy the the healing takes place in spite of me. Instead of I'm not getting in the way of my own healing by being able to, to smile and relax my body and feel genuine happiness. That's just, it's critical.

Vonne Solis  40:32  
Yeah. I want to actually just focus really briefly on each question, but for the audience to think about what can I do? I think we push ourselves so hard in grief. So taking a step back, what would your words of wisdom be to them to stop and think about what can I do? And I would offer on a daily basis, depending on where you are in your grief.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  40:55  
And consider if something was different, how you would feel, and what can you do to have that difference occur? For instance, I, I didn't eat well in early on grief, because I just, I wasn't interested in food. I just that was just the way it was. Other people do the exact opposite. And it just depends on on you, and what goes on with you. And when I wasn't eating well, I didn't have a lot of energy. I didn't feel that great. And I said, What can I do about this? And I thought well duh! You know, the things that you choose to eat, eat wisely. Eat mindfully. And things that you know, will give you strength. You know, will give you energy. You know, you will enjoy the taste so it brings some joy to you. And that's something that you can do, and it's not hard. And it means you're going to eat anyway, you might as well eat something that nourishes you. That's, that's good for you. So that's, that's, that's an example of a kind of a choice of something you can do. It's something there. It's something you do every day. How can you do that, whatever it is, in a way that supports you? 

Vonne Solis  42:19  
Yeah, yeah, it's so critical. We don't have time to list everything, but I would offer and Emily, you may agree, anything you're struggling with that feels like you can't do it, then I love this. What can I do? Or you have a problem. It is kind of solution-oriented thinking. But in early grief, and you know very complex grief, you're not always in solution thinking mode. Get it. So try and at least rationalize a little bit. And if you don't know yourself, what you can do, talk to a family member. Talk to your spouse, if you have a spouse. If you don't have your spouse, an adult child. If you don't have an adult child, a sibling. But I got myself into sometimes maybe bad decision-making. I'm just gonna say that. Okay, looking back, it really wasn't. But at the time, it felt like it. I felt like everything was just completely out of my control. And I really, you know, was just sort of grasping at the next step. And I mean, I had resources that I was working with, and so I never, you know, it was never like the mess that I would have thought to myself it was. It never really was. Everything is manageable. There's always solutions for stuff. 

Vonne Solis  43:43  
But what I didn't have really was the rational, solution-oriented mind to think of solutions. And in all grief, you know, we may be challenged for a period of of time, or a really long time with the survival instinct just because we're putting so many fires out because life completely changes. So that is a pivotal piece, in what can I do? And by the way, Emily, I'm using those today. Because I you know, as I as I mentioned, we were talking a bit about earlier, we do change in our grief. And the stronger we feel, you know, and we might take on too much. We might commit to an obligation that we're really not able to commit to. There's a host of things that can happen. And so what can I do is if you're also pushing yourself too hard, and maybe not struggling. So it's perfect. The what would I like to do piece and then what would I really love to do? Those are just so key, but how do you describe the difference between the two? And experience the feeling from that? That was what caught me in the in the what I would really love to do.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  44:59  
Yeah, In those two questions, I find, especially in earlier grief, we tend to float a little bit. And things just are kind of out there and you don't focus 

Vonne Solis  45:13  
Right.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  45:14  
on on things. So if you focus on what you'd like to do, make a list. I'm a big list maker. And that's a good thing to put in journals. 

Vonne Solis  45:26  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  45:26  
Make a list of all the things you'd like to do and sky's the limit. 

Vonne Solis  45:30  
Yeah. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  45:31  
And as, as you're writing that, you'll get to the point where you you have the things, what I would really like to do and I actually did that. And out of that, for me, came two big trips that I went on by myself. 

Vonne Solis  45:46  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  45:47  
That I never dreamed before that I would do that. I never dreamed that I could travel by myself. 

Vonne Solis  45:52  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  45:53  
To do fabulous, fabulous trips. And I found ways to make them that made it work for me so I didn't feel alone. I didn't feel loneliness when I was doing it. Both of them, I'm a ceramic sculptor. That's something that I just love to do. 

Vonne Solis  46:13  
Right.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  46:13  
There's an international ceramics organization. They've got a couple of different magazines, and and I get them every month. And I noticed in them, there was a trip to Tuscany. And I always thought that I wanted to go to Tuscany. That I would enjoy that. And this trip was with other people who were also ceramists, and we would be seeing different ceramics from the centuries because you know, Tuscany's got a lot of history. I was able to go with a group that had common interests. That we had something to talk about. That we had these experiences that we had together. Saw absolutely fabulous, incredible things that I can't imagine that I would have ever done before. And one thing that was interesting about that was I had seen in that magazine years before that there was this place in Tuscany, that is a ceramics training place. People go there to study. They'll go and do like residencies there and the stuff that comes out of there is beautiful. And I thought boy, it would be really cool to go there sometime and do one of those residencies. I'd like to do that. Well, that that was one of the places we ended up going. And I actually got to study there when I was on that trip.

Vonne Solis  47:36  
Wow. You see intention? 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  47:38  
Yeah. Yeah, it was it was there. I had been manifesting it before I even focussed

Vonne Solis  47:45  
Yeah

Emily Thiroux Threatt  47:45  
that that was what I wanted. And I made the trip richer by doing, by adding some things to it. Like when when I was travelling from Tuscany to Hawaii, that's halfway around the globe. Literally halfway around the globe. We had the plane stopped, or the jet stopped in Madrid. And I thought I've never been to Spain before. Let's instead of just being there for a couple hours on the runway, let me stay a couple of days and see what I could do. 

Vonne Solis  48:18  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  48:18  
And I did. And it was fabulous. And when I was in college, I took an art appreciation class. And one of the paintings that I remembered a lot was Picasso's Guernica. And I always thought that was such a powerful painting. And I went out one day to just walk around where I was staying. I just randomly picked a hotel because I knew nothing about Madrid. And across the street from the hotel, there was an art gallery and museum. And I went over there, and I'm walking through and I walked into the showroom, and there was Guernica. The original. It takes up a whole entire wall. 

Vonne Solis  49:01  
Wow.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  49:02  
And I thought here, back when I was in college all those years ago, I thought it changed my life really, with my thoughts about art and I do so much with art now that I never did before. And I kind of attributed it to this revelation that I had when I saw that picture in a textbook all those years before. And to get to accidentally lock on to that by just randomly deciding to spend an extra couple of days there. And I also decided, the plane was also going to stop in San Francisco. And I had a couple of relatives that lived in and different places that were close to San Francisco and I thought I'm just going to spend a couple days there too. And go --- the people that I probably never would have made a trip specifically just to see them. But it was so wonderful to get to spend time with those those people because I was open. 

Vonne Solis  49:55  
Yeah, exactly.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  49:57  
And when I was writing what I what I would like to do and what I would really like to do, things like going on the trip. I would like to do. I'd really like to go on the trip. And I didn't realize that I really wanted more adventure. Getting to go to Madrid and stopping in San Francisco and doing these things. And

Vonne Solis  50:16  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  50:17  
And in Madrid, one thing that happened to me was when Ron was dealing with what he was feeling, they had recommended that he go on a vegan diet. And so he found for me a training program online to become a certified vegan chef. And it was, it was a big program. A big deal. But I did it and it was fun. And I really, I'm not vegan, but I lean toward that. And so when I was there, I thought, What am I going to do that I'm here in Madrid? And I was looking through all that and I thought, ahh, there's a cooking class. I'm going to take a cooking class and

Vonne Solis  50:52  
Wow.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  50:53  
learn this fabulous Spanish cooking. 

Vonne Solis  50:57  
Yeah. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  50:57  
And I called the person to make the arrangements with her. And I said, Now, I don't know what you're gonna cook at this lesson. But I'm vegan. Is it going to be worthwhile to come? And she goes, No problem, I'll take care of it. And I went there. And she modified there were like, six of us here at the class. And I was the only one that wasn't wanting to eat meat. And she modified everything for me, so that I could have that.

Vonne Solis  51:23  
Right.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  51:23  
And before I left, she said, I have something I want to give you. And she had written down on this little piece of note paper, three different vegan restaurants that were within walking distance that I could go to. And she says these are like the best vegan restaurants. 

Vonne Solis  51:35  
Wow. Yeah. Nice.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  51:38  
So I went to one of them and it was fabulous. I didn't realize what was going to come from that experience after saying, Oh, I'm gonna stay in Madrid for a couple of days, because I've never been in Spain before. And I didn't know what I was going to do when I got there. So when we stay open and think about, Well I'd like to do this. Like I'd like to see Guernica but I didn't even know. I figured it was someplace in Spain but I had no idea where or how to fint it or anything else. I didn't have to. I set the intention. I want to see this and there it was.

Vonne Solis  52:09  
So audience, wherever you are, if you're at your lowest low, because I don't want to forget about those people. Or maybe people who you know, financially aren't in a position to you know, change their circumstances and all this stuff. Trust me, trust me. Trust Emily, trust Emily. We live our lives, intending, manifesting, right? Saying yes. I don't always say yes. But I love that part of your book to. Say yes, say yes. And I did that for about a year and lots of opportunities came to me. But the point I'm making, I started out with just setting the intention and the goal of getting out of bed. As did you. Getting off your couch. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  52:52  
Yep.

Vonne Solis  52:53  
And moving. And that's part of rebuilding. That's part of like, you talk about being social. It's part of making yourself open to what you can do, right? And then dream about yourself. Dream about yourself. And what would you like to do? But what would you really if you had to take it off your list and choose only one or two things? What is it? Because that's your spirit talking to you. That's your soul. It's part of you tying into your purpose. And well you know, and and I believe that our losses are part of our purpose. How we experience them, and some of them are tough. And I know not everyone in the audience listening to this or watching this is going to be able to resonate with that. But that also kept me really on my path of moving forward. Moving forward. Wanting to have the best life for first of all, my daughter, then my family, and now me because I just know it was part of what I contracted to be here. So I'm not going to waste the experience.  So whether you believe that or you don't believe that I still encourage people to think about you know, like, it's that whole self-love self-care piece is you can't change what happened. So do the best for you because you love yourself that much. Right, Emily?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  54:17  
Oh, that's beautiful. Absolutely.

Vonne Solis  54:20  
You know?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  54:20  
And focus on on on the positive always. If you always speak in positive language, that'll change how you're feeling. That will really change your life.

Vonne Solis  54:30  
The loss and the grief gives you an opportunity to find out how you're really wired. We're moving into our closing here with connection and finding joy. The finding joy peace is really important for me because it can come through connection. Which you know, you can probably say is like support groups and maybe offer some other things about the connection and finding joy. But I believe you said write down one joy or more every day. I love that. I learned that from you Emily! And yeah. No seriously. Because chasing happiness, it's not possible to sustain it. What is possible to sustain is our commitment to having an attitude that we'll have everything around us during the day that brings us joy or peace or calm or tranquility, but not everything opposite to negative. Writing, what what happened that really brought you to a today want to speak about that really quickly for the audience?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  55:27  
I love that actually.  Every morning I journal and the last thing that I put in my entry every day is something that brought me joy the day before, that causes me to reflect. And I always have something to write there. And I didn't really think about it before I started doing this practice. But now I do it. And if I ever get and it doesn't happen to me hardly ever anymore. But I get down about something for a while, I can just flip through my journal and look at the end of each one of the entries and go, Oh, that brought me so much joy, or that brought me joy. Or let me do that again. Or let me expand on that. And I realized that there was so much joy in my life that I hadn't been consciously aware of or thinking of before. But when I started writing it each day of something that actually happened, then it changed everything for me.

Vonne Solis  55:27  
Yeah. I just love that piece. And the other thing I just want to throw in as you're talking and I'm thinking, Hmm. You see, because it doesn't have to be the big things and it's usually maybe always the small things. Like you can appreciate colour again. For me, when Janaya died, I couldn't see colour, and I was a gardener. And I couldn't see colour. Like it was muted. And the day I could, I was like, oh my God, I can see colour. And I noted that. That was a joy. 

Vonne Solis  56:53  
So as we move through, we get stronger, these joys might feel bigger. But it it really is the build up and throughout the day so that basically you're enjoying your day. And so I just really want to encourage you audience, start with something one thing, one thing that sort of ignited a little something in you. Maybe it was a warm cup of tea, whatever it was. 

Vonne Solis  57:19  
But the other thing I just really want to quickly say is the things as you are looking to figure out purpose, and what is your gift and what you want to do. Especially if you're left without a spouse, and you're on your own. Whoever you've lost has left you feeling empty, watch for those things that make you feel a twinge of joy. Because those might be signs and signals to you about what you are wanting to at some point embrace into your life. Like you were saying that article. Oh, Tuscany. The ceramics. And you know, so you're speaking to that artistic, you know, part of you. 

Vonne Solis  58:02  
We're going to close this out with speaking just a little bit on your thoughts on connection, Emily, and then your resources. So obviously, some of your resources are completely centered on connection, like your zoom. And do you want to just speak a little bit about what you feel the importance of connection is for people in grief? And then how you provide that connection for them?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  58:28  
Yes, connection is, is vital, I think. And the reason that a lot of people come every week to our zoom gatherings is because they love the connection. It's important to find a way to be around people who get you. And it might not necessarily be somebody that you've known before. But but when you're grieving like with with our Grief and Happiness Alliance gatherings that we have, every week, everybody in there is dealing with some form of loss. It's not all husbands or all children or all anything. Everybody has a different form of loss that they're dealing with that's there. 

Vonne Solis  59:07  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  59:07  
But having that common ground makes it easier to talk and share and write and 

Vonne Solis  59:12  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  59:13  
that's that's really really important and having that kind of connection as opposed to sitting by yourself. Your your monkey mind can drive you nuts when you when you're not connecting with others. And it's 

Vonne Solis  59:24  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  59:25  
important to not isolate yourself and find ways that you can be with people. And it doesn't necessarily have to do with grief. One of the things that I've been doing is taking art classes at different places here on the island and I absolutely love it. I can't believe how good it feels to do that. 

Vonne Solis  59:45  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  59:45  
And I'm not doing it to create a grand painting that I'm going to put in my living room. I'm doing it for the experience of the creating and the experience of learning from somebody I've never met before and meeting other artists or want to be artists in the classes. It's fabulous.

Vonne Solis  1:00:02  
There's no doubt speaking to newer grievers here who may be watching this or listening to this. Understand that where people are that, like Emily and I are years experience. Not as some of, you know, not as long as other people. So I always appreciate wherever anybody is in their grief. Longer term. I would love to learn from somebody 30 years in, you know, as a bereaved parent, but I don't really see them around that much, you know, so that's fine. But you know, it's, it's as you get confident with your yourself in your grief journey, with your loss? These opportunities, you'll be ready for them. So when they sound like a mountain, you know, okay. 

Vonne Solis  1:00:46  
And the other thing is, my interests have changed. And, you know, they're they have changed. And what I could do in my 50s, you know, I'm in my mid 60s, other side of mid, and I don't have the same interests. And I was realizing that talking to my sister about that and go, Oh, yeah, remember, when we wanted to do this, and we wanted to do that? Well, they changed. But that doesn't mean new interests are going to come in. And that's, and I'm going to be honest, that's what I'm figuring that piece out now. And that's why your book was so helpful for me. Because it taught me a lot about Whoa, what if I did become bereaved before you know, like, I lost my husband, before I go, I go? And so, you know, it really helped me think about that. 

Vonne Solis  1:01:34  
And one thing I just want to say is I'm hugely respectful and admire, respectful of and admire women, who are take on solo travellers like you. You know, you just represent so much courage to me. Specially if you didn't do it before. And I'm still I gotta admit it, oh, that would scare the heck out of me. Going to Italy alone? (gasp). And I have several female friends who are alone. And you know what? They were just they tell me, you know, what, if I want to do it, I have to do it. I don't have a partner that's, you know, going to, you know, come along with me. And so I'm being quite honest, when I tell you that, uggh that really would scare me. But I don't need to deal with that today. So do you have any last words to say for the the spouse out there who's lost a spouse and is terrified to go it alone right now about how they can embrace that new life?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:02:39  
Let that terror go because it doesn't serve you. Being happy serves you. Meeting new people serves you. Creating something different than you've created and seeing something different. Experiencing something different serves you. So focus on what serves you.

Vonne Solis  1:02:55  
 I love that.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:02:56  
That that will make all the difference in the world in your life.

Vonne Solis  1:03:00  
I love that. And I'm just gonna say focus on what serves you. I've written that down. Because even though I am not widowed, and hopefully I won't be for a number of years this is extremely helpful advice, Emily, for those of us in any type of vulnerable situation grief or otherwise. Focus on what serves you. And that will bring you everything we've talked about today. I swear it will, right, Emily?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:03:30  
Absolutely. 

Vonne Solis  1:03:31  
So let's close with your resources. You want to just again, let people know the names of your your your book and your handbook. And then the other resources that you're offering?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:03:42  
All the books and my cards are available on Amazon, and you can get them from traditional stores too. My first book was Loving and Living Your Way Through Grief. My most recent book that came out in June was the Grief and Happiness Handbook. My cards are the Grief and Happiness cards. 

Vonne Solis  1:04:03  
Yeah.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:04:04  
And my website is griefandhappiness.com. 

Vonne Solis  1:04:07  
Okay.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:04:07  
And also lovingandlivingyourwaythroughgrief.com. They've got different things on both of them. And when you go to griefandhappiness.com you'll find the link to sign up for our Sunday gatherings if you want to and they're free. We have a nonprofit organization that we created along with the Alliance so that we can provide services without charge to people who are grieving.

Vonne Solis  1:04:30  
You also have a podcast right?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:04:32  
Yes, my podcast is Grief and Happiness. You can listen to it anywhere that you get your podcasts.

Vonne Solis  1:04:38  
Oh, okay. That's perfect. So you have links to all of that on your website. I'll put a link to your website in the show notes. Any last words you have?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:04:48  
Focus on being happy. Focus on you know, what serves you. Enjoying your life. Making the very most out of each moment.

Vonne Solis  1:04:58  
If you have a life view that everything's gonna work out. And I, even if you have to discipline yourself, I'm going to, you know, take a happier, more positive, more joyous, you know, view of this. Solutions, all that stuff versus my life's a mess. You're angry. Blaming everybody else, you're going to create what you are actually telling yourself the situation is right? Right.?

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:05:25  
Absolutely. Everybody is a creator. Just pay attention to what you're creating.

Vonne Solis  1:05:30  
Love or fear people. And I choose love every time. 

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:05:35  
Me too.

Vonne Solis  1:05:35  
Anyway, Emily, this is wonderful. So thank you very much for being a guest on the Grief Talk podcast. As I say every voice counts. And it was just an absolute pleasure having you on my show. So thank you for all that you are doing. Thank you.

Emily Thiroux Threatt  1:05:52  
Oh, thank you for having me on. I love love to talk about all this. 

Vonne Solis  1:05:56  
Okay, thanks.